Posts by David

37

Science may answer the question: Is there a God?

by Old Navy in

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qkdv6yg3s.

David_Jay

Since the subject is "God," it might be appropriate to bring up that a few terms by the OP and even never a jw are considered archaic in mainstream theology, especially since the year 2000 due to the 50-year-long Christian-Jewish ecumenical dialogues representing almost all major denominations, and especially the changes this made to Christianity in particular in 2015.

Christianity, with the Roman Catholic Church taking the lead acknowledged that Judaism's interpretation of God was first and can no longer be ignored by Christian exegesis.

With that in mind, Judaism has never held that God is male or has gender. Even the Hebrew pronouns used for God, while at first blush was read in the masculine due to a misunderstanding on the part of Christian scholars, is actually neuter. Just as Hebrew has no vowels, Biblical Hebrew has no neuter personal pronoun. It merely uses the masculine as a device of syntax for neuter as it sometimes used the feminine as a device of syntax to describe inanimate objects.

God is also NOT invisible in Judaism, just very hard on the eyes. There is a bit of God in everything and everyone. When it or they fulfill their purpose, or especially when a person does something practical and good, a little bit of God is visibly exposed to the universe. This would be impossible if God were invisible.

Lastly, Jews don't accept that God is always right. One of the reasons Jews believe that God chose to be in a covenant with mere mortals was to grow. The word "Israel" means "those who wrestle with God." That's why we aren't called the nation of Abraham. We take after Jacob, who kept wrestling with God's plan for him. We do not blindly obey, we argue with God, and sometimes we tell God we don't agree with God.

Christians are indeed struggling with these ancient concepts that we Jews have of God, but for the first time in their 2000 year history they have decided to be open to them. At least they've agreed to stop formal attempts at converting us away from them.

So some of your arguments for and against God need to be updated to go back some 4000 years so you are up to date with the today's Protestant and Catholic churches. It's part of the program to prevent the Holocaust from happening again. Christians recognize their old doctrines played at least an indirect part in that horror.

It isn't enough to dredge up old arguments. Religious concepts in Christianity have recently changed and dramatically so because of the Holocaust. It took over a generation of dialogue with Jews (a formal dialogue that is still going on), but in 2015 they indeed did, and on both ends too.

You may have never been a JW, or have recently left, but you're talking to people who are part of the real world now. Here in the real world we're educated, we're engaged, we keep up with what's going on.

Saying merely what you think is true is not enough anymore.

37

Science may answer the question: Is there a God?

by Old Navy in

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9qkdv6yg3s.

David_Jay

Remember, science is a critical methodology.

And according to this method, a subject must be able to be studied and sampled in order to be verified. Without empirical evidence there is no way for independent parties to verify anyone's hypothesis and developing an end theory. No end theory, then no answer from science.

This creates an immediate problem. God in the Judeo-Christian sense is transcendent. This means God cannot be subjected to sampling. God transcends the physical universe and the space-time continuum.

One therefore cannot collect any empirical evidence from God. In fact, one shouldn't expect to because for God to be God, God must be this transcendent Being. If we were able to gather a sample of God or some type of evidence to subject to the scientific method for study, then this would mean God was not transcendent and therefore mean that God was not God.

See? It's a paradox. If you had evidence, then you wouldn't have a transcendent God. And if God is God then you shouldn't be expecting empirical evidence since God is transcendent. Science is great, just not the right tool for this.

Just like a screwdriver is a great tool, but if you get your furniture from Ikea, a screwdriver won't help no matter how great a tool it is. You are going to need an allen wrench.

The scientific method requires samples of empirical evidence. If you have that, then there is no God. By making the above claim, you've lost your case.

15

Are any of the 1st Cnetury Apostles Still Alive Today ?

by maccauk in

the second coming was in the 1st century all things have been fulfilled because jesus told them some would still be alive when he returned.

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David_Jay

Are any of the 1st Cnetury Apostles Still Alive Today ?
The second coming was in the 1st century all things have been fulfilled because jesus told them some would still be alive when he returned

No. None of "the 1st Cnetury Apostles" are alive due to your refusal to use spell-check.

They also perished due to your writing in run-on sentences and your inability to type periods.

However, if you are attempting to spread the good news of Jesus Christ by using nothing but your ass cheeks on a keyboard, then I will let it slip by...as long as you remember to wipe the keyboard down with a good sanitizer after each use.

33

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and naation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

Oh, and for those of you who just can't believe that we Jews aren't smart enough to read the Torah this way, note the following, very brief (and very funny) video about Sukkot, the Festival of Booths.

Note the reference on how it was originally a harvest tradition where harvesters lived in temporary huts to gather the crops of the fall and later the Exodus tradition of the Festival of Booths was applied to it.

(And yes, this video was made with the help of the producers of The Lego Movie.)

https://youtu.be/SRHkgWGyn4Y

33

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and naation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

The Torah (Genesis through Deuteronomy) is a product of the Babylonian exile. It is a reinterpretation of history in Jewish folkloric terms, adding religious explanations to our past to preserve our culture while in Babylon captivity, looking to be returned to the Promised Land again.

So while Jews see Torah (and other Scripture) as written under God's providence, it doesn't mean that it is a book of facts. For instance, Paul Revere's Ride by Henry Longfellow tells the famous story of the midnight ride of Paul Revere and his famous call to warn the American colonists about the arrival of the British recoats: "The Britsh are coming! The Britsh are coming!"

Every American knows it as history, but the problem is it isn't. It never happened. It's just a poem. Paul Revere is a real person and attempted to warn the colonists of the British invasion, but was captured. It was Samuel Prescott that accomplished the mission.

Longfellow's poem is folklore, a form of genre that captures the cherished truths in a form of narrative and hands it down to generations in a format to keep those truths alive through the ages. The same can be said about the folklore about George Washington chopping down his father's cherry tree, Betsy Ross making the first American flag, turkey being served at the first Thanksgiving dinner, etc. These are not stories of facts. They are folkloric, filled with American truths to preserve culture and promote American values.

The stories in the Torah are similar. In reality a bunch of escaped slaves from Egypt could have never amassed together a genocidal army and conquered whole nations. The idea is not only disgusting, it's illogical. The people are starving and dying of thirst in the desert one moment but then a mighty and formidable army of war the next? Not likely.

No, the Jews were in exile in Babylon when they wrote these stories. They were afraid of assimilating, losing their cultural identity. So they developed the synagogue and liturgical system.

The liturgical system is a formal set of prayers and holy Scripture readings that taught lessons about their culture, designed to be read on select Sabbaths over the period of one year. Like American folklore, they gave their history a bit of a twist, setting up everything with a religious origin. For instance, Passover and the Festival of Booths had pre-Exodus origins. But via the Torah, the new liturgy claimed both festivals were linked exclusively to the Exodus from Egypt and their travel to the Promised Land.

We Jews are actually a combination of the children of Abraham and some slaves that left Egypt as well as the people of Canaan. We didn't kill the people who originally lived in the Fertile Crescent. We intermixed with them. We are them!

But we did force our monotheism upon them, especially during the Davidic dynasty, and this eventually "killed" the remnants of the previous Canaanites in that sense. But that is not all.

The narratives are written from the standpoint of the Jews who are exiled in Babylon. We wanted to be returned to the Promised Land. We saw Nebuchadnezzar as a new type of Pharaoh and the gods of the heathens as the Canaanites. We wanted them wiped out so we could be set free.

Torah ends with Moses not being allowed to enter the Promised Land but getting to see the land area from far off. This is where the Jews saw themselves in Babylon. And the story ends there. It isn't history. It's liturgy.

The stories of David were put together shortly before, during, and after the exile. They are also liturgy. David's exploits are very much like the stories of Paul Revere. There is truth, but little fact.

It appears you have the Christian concept of Scripture and God in mind. Jews don't see the Tanakh (our word for the Bible) as you are describing it. And the "God is love" thing, agai it too is a Christian thing.

Jews are called the children of Israel, not the children of Abraham. Israel is that name God gave to Jacob because Jacob wrestled with God. We get our name from Jacob because we are not in an "sit down, accept , and obey" relationship with some long-haired hippie-loves-everybody god that Christians talk about.

Jews are in a covenant with a God they wrestle with, that they don't always agree with, that we often argue with or say we think God isn't acting right by what God is doing. That is part of our job in this covenant relationship. We wrestle God daily like this.

We are far from perfect, or course. And some of us might like to think we have all the answers (and they don't, I assure you). But we are far different from the measuring stick you are using. You got that from Christian theology. Jews think very, very differently.

So it's good you are asking. We don't approve of actual genocide. We wouldn't have had a problem with the Spanish Inquisition or the Holocaust if that was the case. These events in Torah mean something else. They are folkloric allegories against heathen worship of idol gods.

33

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and naation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

EverApostate wrote:

Do you [Jews] believe there were Messiahs in the past AND /OR would appear in future [?]

Good question, EverApostate.

First, Jews don't "believe in" things like Christians do. We don't have tenets of faith or doctrines that we are required to believe in to be Jews. Judaism is a religion of practice, not of belief. One is Jew by birth, by blood. Some can convert to become a member of the tribe, but there is no assent to a creed.

Next, the word "messiah" means someone who has been "anointed" or been publicly appointed to act in a certain office of oversight. Sometimes this office was as a priest in the Temple. Most of the time, the word "messiah" referred to the person ruiling as king. Every king that ruled in Israel while we still used the monarchy system of government in Israel was a "messiah."

But will there be a "promised Messiah" as Judaism speaks of in the Gemara and other texts that came after the Hebrew Bible was completed, a teaching picked up by the followers of Jesus of Nazareth who are known as Christians?

Some Jews hold that there will be a literal Messiah or set of Messiah figures in the future, a monarch or a monarch and a priest, who will restore Israel to its glory days. But other Jews, like myself, feel that no one in Israel or the world would ever allow a king or any other type of monarch to rule them. The day of monarchies are long past gone. People won't allow themselves to be ruled by kings and queens anymore. Even the age of denominational divides and rabbinical authorities has come to an end in Judaism. We live in a post-denominational, post-rabbinal Jewish world. How can we possibly expect to see a literal monarch Messiah come and redeem Israel?

So many Jews see the Messiah as a personifaction of a hope, of a day when humanity will conquer war, sickness, poverty, and all of its worst enemies. We, all of humanity, will rule over all that is evil and bring redemption and peace to our world. We have the ability. We have been created to evolve into such a species. The Jewish principle of Tikkun Olam and the hope of Olam Ha Ba point to this.

9

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and nation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

I like how this poster is just making multiple copies of the same subject, cutting and pasting the OP and making suckers out of us while sitting back and watching what happens:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/6299327565660160/second-coming-christ

33

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and naation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

And lastly, Fisherman, if I wanted to, there would have been a much easier way for me, a Jewish man, to have given you an answer.

Jews, as you know, don't accept Jesus as Messiah. We don't hold him as a prophet. We do not view the Gospels of any of the Christian Scriptures as inspired. So, instead of going out of my way to be objective and give an academic answer I could have merely said:

"Jesus is not the Messiah or a prophet, so there is no reason to believe what he said."

I didn't. I left my personal beliefs out of things. I merely cited what Christian scholars teach. They hold Jesus as Messiah, as a prophet, as someone who foretold many things, but they don't see things as Jehovah's Witnesses do. They are not naive. Still they remain faithful without having to have things play out so black-and-white as you seem to demand. That, to me, is real faithfulness. I admire that in them.

You, on the other hand, said that if it wasn't as prophetic as you excepted that you might as well toss it away. That shows how shallow you are about Jesus. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus has to fit your view of him or he goes into the garbage too. Interesting.

But again, the simplest answer from me could have been to abandon it all because Jesus isn't Messiah. But notice, I didn't do that. For you see, I can be objective. I can forget what I believe, leave my opinion and convictions behind and give replies that are fair and informative, even if they don't reflect my personal belief. To me the truth matters, even if I don't subscribe to it.

Now, I'm tired of talking to you. A great thing about forums is I can move on and ignore you, which is what I am doing at the moment. I'm sure you haven't the self-control to not reply back and do the same.

33

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and naation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

Fisherman,

I answered your question. These texts are originally Marcan.

For those unaware what happened earlier in this thread, Fisherman's first post involved a quote from Jesus' conversation with the Pharisees regarding the nature of the Kingdom of God. It is found at Luke 17:20-37. Note that Fisherman only quoted verses 29-31 and offered no citations or contextual background.

All mainstream textual scholars agree that Luke added verses 22-32 into the conversation from Marcan sources. To illustrate.

According to the 100 plus scholars who worked on the official United States Catholic Bible, the NABRE, the footnote to these verses state:

Luke has also appended further traditional sayings of Jesus about the unpredictable suddenness of the day of the Son of Man, and assures his readers that in spite of the delay of that day..., it will bring judgment unexpectedly on those who do not continue to be vigilant.--Italics added.

It isn't that scholars aren't saying that Jesus never said these things, but that Jesus never made this prediction at this time. This is a Lucan addition made to condemn the Pharisees, and by extension the Jews due to this anti-Jewish sentiment the early Church had toward their Hebrew brethren.

Luke was trying to state that Jesus was predicting judgments specifically upon the non-Christian Jews, but as scholars point out, the shift in wording is clearly lifted from Marcan vocabulary. Luke was a Greek and wrote very differently.

I stated all this already, but used different sources. The conclusions are still the same. I have definitely stayed in point and definitely replied to your post.

33

The Second Coming of Christ

by maccauk in

the second coming of christ was in the 1st century at the destruction of jerusalem the temple the law and the old covenants.

so the new eternal covenant came into force in which people of every tribe tongue and naation would enter into.

the new jerusalem not built by human hands nor with bricks and mortar its spiritual cannot be seen but people will stream to it the sin issue is done there is no more judgment for those in christ .

David_Jay

I never diverted from the subject of the Second Coming. Go back over my posts and ask anyone here if I have been diverting from the subject.

As for you not making rules, you wrote:

If you can't think in those terms, you should recuse yourself from trying to answer my question.

Not only did you set rules for how you wanted me to write, you here admit, in your own words, that I indeed was offering an answer.

The only problem is that you don't like the answer I gave, not that I didn't give an answer.

And setting terms or parameters for answers is setting "rules."

You, Fisherman, are lying. I don't appreciate liars.

Now, back to the theme. I won't spend another moment discussing anything that doesn't have to with the subject matter, like Fisherman's Watchtower brand peanut butter sandwiches.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay