Posts by David

29

EXJW's in Mensa?

by Luther bertrand in

jw
friends

any exjw's or faders out there in mensa?

any online groups for this niche?

David_Jay

In line with the post by GrreatThinker--

I have a "high" IQ, was a child prodigy, and still test high on intelligent quotient tests in adulthood. I qualified for membership in Mensa International after my first test in my late 20s.

However, there is no such thing as a standard scale for measuring an IQ. I learned this after my first exam from the psychologist who tested me.

When people say "I have an IQ of 130" that doesn't mean anything because of the lack of a universal standard scale. The "130" is a score on a particular test, and it can be equal to an "83" on another and a "157" on another, and be called "average" on a totally different one that doesn't employ number scores.

Mensa International accepts for members those whose IQ test(s) reveal scores above 98% of the testing population, or at 2% or less on the far right of the Bell scale. If, just to give an example, you tested at "130" on a certain exam, but according to how the population is testing "130" was the average adult score for those taking the same test, then you wouldn't qualify.

If "130" on a totally different exam was only reached by 2% or less of the testing population, then you could be accepted as a Mensa member.

But there are things you need to take into account:

1. Most people, except for the most mentally gifted, will test lower and lower on IQ tests as they age. If you took a test as a youth, your score on the same test will likely be lower today (and that's totally normal for most).

2. High IQ scores don't always mean "smart" people. Just because you can beat any computer playing chess doesn't mean you have what it takes to balance a checkbook or get along with people or make a success of your life. Most people with high IQs have low EQs, meaning they have a hard time emotionally relating to the general public. Many of these people cannot hold down jobs or handle intimate relationships.

3. "Genius" doesn't guarantee "high IQ" or vice versa. Some people are very talented or have extremely high mathematical IQs but very low language IQs. Just about anyone can be a "genius" in their own field, but very few people with high IQs ever do anything that gets noticed by the world as "genius."

Lastly having a high IQ has nothing to do with religion. My pioneer partner and I roomed together for two years, both of us lucky enough to meet another in the Org who tested above average on IQ tests. But he was much more higher on the IQ totem pole than I was, scoring in the 1%. He also couldn't relate to the average JW or at least play along as I did.

I left the religion of the Watchtower after about only a decade of being in but he never did. I heard that he passed away just last year, still a JW. Logical thinking can only take you so far if you don't allow yourself access to data without prejudice. If you don't get all the information, your conclusions are always incomplete or incorrect.

My buddy wouldn't study the Chruch Fathers or accept certain conclusions of particular biologists and physicists, apply critical hermeneutic principles when approaching religious texts or accept any conclusion contrary to what came from the Governing Body. Why not? Because besides being right or correct, we often want to believe we are good people. He knew these things were not what made a "good" person in the eyes of the Witnesses.

So he chose to believe that the measurement for "good" was the JW leadership. Logically, with this as an unchanging, unbending ingredient to any formula you develop, no matter how well you keep thinking principles in check, the conclusions will always be wanting.

So a high IQ doesn't mean much, nor does being an "expert" at thinking logically (he was a professional technical problem-solver for big companies). We are rarely gifted to be a good judge of our own wants, desires, and emotional needs and how we let these cloud are judgment from time to time. And humans in denial will deny they are in denial.

Add to this, sometimes we confuse being correct or right with the moral quality of being "good." Being smart, intellectual, educated, a genius, and even correct are not moral qualities. But since we get raised being rewarded for good grades, get praise for parroting the "correct answer" at Watchtower studies, even promoted at work for often "thinking" in line with our employer's philosophy, it is never easy to separate the two.

You don't have to go to college, have a high IQ, or even be a specialist at forensics (logical deduction) to leave the JWs behind. You only need to be willing to open your eyes, accept facts regardless if they agree with you, and have the courage to leave it all behind. It doesn't take brains, necessarily. It takes will power and a desire to "do" right more than merely "be" right.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

I feel like I am hitting my head against a wall, but here goes.

There is a very big difference in saying "I am leaving this forum and not posting anymore" and what I said: "I am leaving this forum in the hands of those far better..." etc. I said I am going to sit back and listen.

Second, I have not been to a Kingdom Hall since the 1990s. I am 50 years old. I know that people can be atheists, are atheists, I have atheist friends, I even dated and almost married an atheist. I not only believe in evolution, I have taught it. If you are suspecting ignorance and this is your response, it doesn't speak well of those who do as I have clearly mentioned these things and how much I actively support atheists.

It is far from logical to believe that indulging one self to a situation where regular insults are an earmark will expand the EQ. Analytical thinking doesn't lend itself to insulting another. Lack of self-control and discipline do.

Thus the suggestion to "strengthen your abilities to control your thoughts and emotions and focus them more clearly into rational thought and expression" by subjecting oneself to others who cannot respond rationally and respectfully is a paradox. While there is something to be said for the "no pain, no gain" model, such can only be successful where there are controls to how much "pain" can create benefit. Subjecting oneself to where such things cannot be controlled is not of benefit. Too much weight, too much exercise, and POW, no benefit whatsoever.

I am convinced that you can do fine on your own without my input. You did not need it before, and by insulting you show you do not care for it now. You thus will not get it tomorrow. Insulting someone is not a way to welcome another or even treat a trusted friend. If you expect a positive response, you are expecting something like Stockholm Syndrome. Sorry, but I will never be grateful for such treatment from anybody.

After hearing that and reading comments in support of that view, I now know I am in the wrong place. So instead of sitting back and reading and being quiet this should be my exit.

It's not that the water's too cold to adjust to, it's that people keep swimming over and holding my head underwater until I almost drown. There's a difference. I'm human, like you. I also need to breathe, like you. I also need to be treated with respect, like you.

Thanks for listening. Good luck on whatever you all do from here.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Re-read my posts.

I was stating we could use our educational histories, IQs, etc., to do a more precise study on the question being asked. Assuming everyone on here has something similar I thought people were genuinely interested in finding an analytical answer.

I wasn't saying my education or IQ prove I am not a "dumb theist." Apparently it doesn't matter what my education is or my WAIS scoring as none of this prevents people from calling me names or congratulating me. People will take the same data and arrive at conclusions they desire in the end.

I didn't publish anything that isn't on my public internet resumes or that can't be found on professional profiles about me around the Net.

If anyone is interest, I have a very low EQ, and I don't always deal well with people because I tend to be highly logical and extremely literal compared to others. My posts where in line with literally getting our information together to come up with a literal hypothetical model and arrive at an answer. To be very honest I am very confused by some of the responses, and my questions I write in response are real. I am asking becuase I don't know.

Therefore I leave this forum in the hands of those far better to explain things and deal with matters regarding JWs (see my education and IQ don't help me after all). Like the real world, I am better sitting back and listening even here.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

So the Jehovah's Witnesses are to be criticized because they discourage higher learning.

Those who believe in God are to be criticized for being dumb.

And someone who was merely pointing out that we can use our own credentials (becuase I assumed most of us here have them) to devise a more precise formula to answer this thread's question is an "arrogant narcissist"?

I'm educated, so what? Practically everyone on here talks like they are, so I assumed as much. Damned am I if I agree with the Watchtower on the pitfalls of higher education and damned if I get a higher education, huh?

We are hypocrites if we criticize the Governing Body for its views on higher education when we turn around and insult those who have that education. How can we claim we are enlightened and critical thinkers if we don't ensure that our critical thinking is proper? Forensics, my major by the way, is critical analysis.

I leave this forum therefore to you good people and the likes of DJS.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

Fisherman,

As you know tonite is Shabbat. Went to dinner at my brother's house, and the rabbi was there. I asked your question. This was his answer:

"What do you think, that Judaism is built on nothing but Rashi?"

(For those who aren't familiar with what Fisherman is asking, Solomon Ben Isaac, also known as Rashi, was a most famous and influential Jewish exegete.)

But, as the rabbi explained, Judaism is not a static relgion like some forms of Christianity. As the rabbi put it, "some Christians see God as in a snapshot or still picture taken from the Bible, but Jews see revelation from God as an ongoing process. What gets revealed in one age is not necessarily for another. The Scriptures are not what religion is supposed to be based upon. Religion from God produces Scripture. Understanding them is not static but changes as the Jewish people evolve."

Rashi is still important, it was impressed upon me, but "Moses he's not," I was reminded. "Things change. Religion changes. Get over it."

Straightforward answers aren't freely forthcoming from Jewish rabbis, but I am sure you know this. This is all I got.

Dinner was good, but they served Magen David. Oy vey!

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Of course I assume everyone here is college-educated with a degree and knows their IQ score and the name of their test they took?

I went to Rice, then studied at Florida State, and continued at Columbia (UTS) with a BA in Forensic Science and in Liturgy. On the WAIS-IV I scored at 132.

I believe in God. If believing in God makes you dumb then wouldn't it follow that all atheists here have even higher scores, better sheepskins, and far more successful careers and much higher salaries than me?

Where did you go to college, atheist or theist? What degrees do you have? Which IQ text did you take and what was your score? What do your answers say not only in regard to the original question but to the various answers here given? I think that would be a better gauge than anything else.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

I am not sure how their theology works in all instances. My family is Jewish. I can ask how this "no universal dogma" thing works and get back with you. But when you're talking about a room full of various ideas and beliefs, I have been told by my brother, you're likely describing a room full of Jews.

9

Orthodox Jews Recognize Christianity as 'Willed By God' as Catholics Call Jewish Covenant "Irrevocable"

by David_Jay in

to date, over 50 jewish rabbis from around the world have added their names to an historical statement in response to ongoing jewish and catholic relations which have proved successful since the vatican released nostre aetate some 50 years ago...and the number is growing.. in the first days of december of 2015, about 24 orthodox rabbis signed a "statement on christianity" released by the israel's center for jewish-christian understanding and cooperation, with the vatican releasing its own document entitled "the gifts and the calling of god are irrevocable" just one week later.

both statements recognize each other's religion as divine, from the same source, and part of the same (albeit mysterious) providential economy of redemption from god.. while not totally new, especially since the papacy of st. pope john paul ii, the vatican document is a substantial culmination of formal statements and studies that came before over the last half century.

especially from the largely ignored but striking significance of the pontifical "the jewish people and their sacred scriptures in the christian bible," the new 2015 document is a reiteration of all that has come before in one place, resounding the previous scripture-study statement that the church holds that the jews are still the covenant people of god, that the covenant has never been revoked, and.... "in the past, the break between the jewish people and the church of christ jesus could sometimes, in certain times and places, give the impression of being complete.

David_Jay

Fishermen,

Many the views you express are not the views of all the Orthodox Jews who have signed the document.

There are also no universal dogmas among the Jews, so the way doctrine is understood can differ drastically from Jew to Jew (which is why they enjoy debating among themselves so much in the yashiva system).

Most schools of thought among Jews do not formally recognize Satan the Devil at all, and this is true especially among the Orthodox. But you are correct that some Orthodox Jews have some views of the universe which are similar to Fundamentalist Christians, but the majority of Jews do not.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Cofty,

The repeated suggestion that certain views are connected to Watchtower beliefs are meant to be limited to those persons who are either not out of the Witness system yet or still breaking free.

I directly mention the Witnesses in some instances because I don't want those particular views I am referencing at the time to be mistaken as applying to others of different denominations or schools of thought who idependent of the JWs may have a similar conviction. I don't think I have come across anyone here who directly supports the Watchtower views yet, so I don't see how anyone who could think these apply to themselves who are either not associated with or never have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

But if you don't like the way I have put things, then I guess I have to either change things or make it a bit clearer the next time around.

41

Does Believing in God Make You Dumb?

by Brokeback Watchtower in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzqaeusdmtk.

http://jdc.jefferson.edu/jmbcimfp/5/.

abstract.

David_Jay

Ihunt,

The reference I made was to a different school of thought than the other "death of God" philosophers.

While Rubenstein definitely came after Neitzche, I am certain you learned that neither invented the phrase. It is a very ancient view in Judaism that God has been absent after creation. An old axiom from Judaism, pre-dating the Enlightenment is that God doesn't exist unless we make it so: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you."

The Jewish culture, having invented the God of Abraham, also introduced the first to reject his existence, especially when Gentiles didn't worship or know about him. Such views occurred in the Second Temple era, before Christ.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay