Posts by David

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

David_Jay

Memphis,

I was only speaking about what Judaism has to say about itself. I personally have no investment or interest.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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I've run into this more than several times on this site, and while it surprises me that some people are not aware of this, but just becuase I report something does not mean i condone it, approve of it, agree with it, believe it, or have any emotional investment I it. I am not the type of person to only speak up on those subjects that benefit me or side with my views or convictions.

Therefore I am not the one who can answer your questions. I think you should direct them to those rabbis who signed (and are still signing this agreement). You may also wish to consult with theologians connected with the Holy See, likely beginning on the diocesan level with the Catholic pastoral office in your area. You should ask for the office of the Chancellor. You can also contact the local Orthodox rabbis in your area.

Beyond finding this very interesting in the history of Jewish-Christian relations, I am merely a watcher from the sidelines. I have no personal views or opinions regarding any of the parties involved.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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David_Jay

No, James. Judaism is not accepting Jesus as Messiah.

Some forms of Judaism do not even believe the Messiah is going to be a person. Reform Judaism, for example, believes the Messiah was a personification of a time when humanity will be bringing its own redemption, for example.

This statement is merely stating that many Orthodox Jews now see Christianity as a valid and inspired form of worshipping the God of Abraham. The statement is in response to a series of official statements from the Catholic Church which has stated that God's covenant is still in effect with Israel, is irrevocable, and that the separation between Church and synagogue is both unscriptural and should never have occurred.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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David_Jay

In the last paragraph I meant to write:

...As such their religion is valid. Do they need to accept Jesus as Messiah? Christians do not and cannot know God's mind on these matters....

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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David_Jay

After World War II when the Axis powers fell, and the Jews returned to their homeland with the birth of the new republic of Israel, Christendom (here using the expression as JWs use it for clarity to us who were once JWs) took a reflective step back. After the recapturing of Jerusalem and the Temple mound in the Six-Day War in the 1960s, this reflective step back became a move to reinterpret Christianity's relationship to Judaism, especially that of the Roman Catholic Church.

Prior to the Holocaust, Christendom, including Catholicism, taught that the Jews were rejected by God since they rejected Jesus as Messiah. But when virtually without any army and no nation the Jews survived the Holocaust while the giant war machines of the Axis nations did not, Christian theologians wondered if witnessing the Jews' return to Israel was not indeed prophecy being fulfilled.

After the Six-Day War the Holy See officially recognized Israel as a sovereign nation, and the Church began to alter its theology on Jews. God was obviously still caring for these people and, unfortunately, the Church recognized it had played a major part in attempting to destroy them and their culture.

In response the Church and mainstream Protestantism has stopped claiming that the Jews have been rejected by God. As such their religion is valid. Christians do not and cannot know God's mind on these matters, or so they say, and thus in the face of how the history of the Jews has turned out after the Holocaust it became apparent that the proselytizing of the Jews and praying for their conversion to Christianity was not in line with what was being experienced via providence. Thus it was halted beginning in the last half of the 20th century.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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David_Jay

Nope. Jews for Jesus proselytize Jews, an act that is rejected by both Catholcism and all branches of Judaism.

This statement is made by Orthodox Rabbis around the world, and the site belongs to one of the Jewish organizations in a working relationship with the Catholic Church to improve Jewish-Christian relations.

Jews for Jesus believe that Jews must accept Jesus as Messiah. This view is formally rejected by Catholicism, many Protestant denominations, and all branches of Judaism.

This statement is not about Jews accepting Jesus but that the issue of Messiah is not a stumbling block to both Jews and the Catholic Church working together as authentic religious expressions inspired by God.

38

Why was it so hard for Jesus to convince the Jews that he was the Messiah???

by James Mixon in

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David_Jay

My family is Jewish, and last year during Hannukah I learned something about this that makes some of the information posted here, while accurate at one time, partially dated due to an event that occurred last December in Jewry.

In response to changes in the Roman Catholic Church towards Jews and Israel, Orthodox rabbis from around the world have come to the agreement that Christianity is part of God's redemption for the world. (See http://cjcuc.com/site/2015/12/03/orthodox-rabbinic-statement-on-christianity/ for more details.)

Prior to this statement the other branches of Judaism have had an accepting but nonetheless standoffish view of Christianity. However, this latest declaration refers to Christianity as 'no accident,' and recognizes Jesus, for the first time, as a Jewish "sage." The statement calls Christianity and the work of Jesus part of God's providential plan, and Judaism's current partnership with the Roman Catholic Church a genuine expression of "tikkun olam," God's work of redemption in the world.

While it recognizes that this in no way makes the two religious traditions compatible in theology and doctrine, it does state that this is not necessary for this partnership. It recognizes Jesus in the way great rabbis in the past have who saw Jesus as God's instrument to turn the Gentiles away from idol gods.

What does this mean as to how Jesus is to be viewed by the Jews and the reasons given up to this point for his rejection as Messiah? Don't expect a sudden conversion, but there has already been a lot of Jewish rabbis and instructors admitting that pride and stubbornness has played a part in keeping outdated prejudices about Jesus and Christians alive in the Jewish world.

A couple of years ago Jews released their first commentary and study version of the New Testament, "The Jewish Anotated New Tetsament: NRSV." It has also become a recent custom of some Jews to read 1 and 2 Maccabees during Hannukkah from Catholic translations such as the NABRE since Catholics preserved these texts while Jewry did not (even though these are the books that tell the Hannukkah story). This is part of a growing movement within Jewry to reclaim the Deuterocanonicals and the New Testament as products of the Jewish culture and to yield from them a better understanding of Hebrew culture and history.

So some of the arguments you may read above are still valid, but some have to be read with an asterisk taking the current flux into consideration. Again this is not saying all the Jews are happily embracing Jesus (the above statement includes the Catholic Church's current stand against any type of proselytizing of the Jews and destruction of their culture), but it is no longer denunciating the position taken by Gentile worshippers of the God of Abraham.

And the document does say that Jews and Christians don't have to debate this issue or convert one another to their views as it is part of God's purpose to have these two seemingly opposites work in unison for the same divine purpose. The Church in kind has responded by stating the Jewish covenant with God is still valid and irrevocable, and that attempts to convert the Jews to Christianity is apparently not part of the economy of providence.

7

Is the Watchtower Society following in the footsteps of the Catholic Church?

by Esse quam videri in

many members of this forum speculate that the lawsuits faced by the watchtower society are leading to its demise or at least putting incredible pressure on its ability to function as it has in the past.

the reports from wt and awake articles regarding the catholic church give credence to these members arguments.. note: comments by the society often have them taking the moral 'high ground'.

examination of the australian royal commission testimony and findings would leave any 'thinking person' shaking their head in disbelief.

David_Jay

What the Watchtower does not publish and what Jehovah's Witnesses apparently are being very selective about reading are all the reports of how the problems with sexual child abuse came to the fore in the Catholic Church, how the Church has been handling it since, and why this isn't causing the Catholic Church to fall. It's numbers are growing now.

While we are all aware that if it were not for outside sources like brave news media reporters and law officials, much would not have changed, but what the Witnesses don't talk about are the Catholic parishioners, priests, nuns, bishops and others associated with the Church who have been pressing the issue and succeeding at changing things. There are people in that Church fighting as well.

The stubborn members of Catholic clergy who sat on the problem are no different from the elders and Governing Body members who are in denial and who even persecute victims and their families. One can find very common earmarks in cases where there was an organizational attempt of "sweeping things under the rug." This may be because predators seem to have certain traits in common, including the way they hide things from the public. Evil is the same, regardless of what religion it joins.

What is vastly different is how the two religions deal with things. Jehovah's Witnesses smother their members and threaten them with disfellowshipping if they don't remain quiet. Catholics, on the other hand, refused to remain quiet, saw the problem as something ruining their Church that they had to root out, and members themselves were the ones doing the threatening to clergy.

There was a film (based on an award-winning play) entitled "Doubt" about a strict, no-nonsense nun who confronted a priest who was obviously a child predator. It is more than fiction. The story is more of a mirror. It has been very difficult for faithful Catholics to fight with clergy to set things right. It has taken decades, in fact, to get as far as they have come. Many, like the nun in the film played artfully by Meryl Streep) have had their strength, stamina, and very faith in God pushed to horrible limits in order to get justice. Like the protagonist in this story, there are many unsung heroes who have said: "Not in my Church you don't! Get the hell out!" But we often don't hear about these, especially not in Watchtower articles.

Witnesses who want to be "good" often won't push the issue and will believe whatever the elders and Governing Body tells them, and they become persecutors of victims too by their silence and failure to do anything but demonize those who have truly suffered. Whereas the authorities in the Catholic Church should have done more, done it faster, and still have a long way to go, Catholic parishioners and faithful priests and other religious won't be silent. As they see things, this is their Church, there are more of them than there are unfaithful predatory priests in the midst, and they'll be damned if they let anyone get away with things. These Catholics fight for the victims, the victim's families, and their Church. They are not going to let their religion get ruined by faithless priests.

The Church is also powerless to excommunicate them, unlike the JWs. Standing up for justice is not an offense in the Catholic Church. The Church has already admitted to a dark history where it learned its lesson due to persecuting its own members in the past for speaking up, like they did with St. Joan of Arc. They don't do that these days. They readily admit that they can be subject to unspeakable evil if left unchecked.

The push from the inside and the response from outside the Church has moved it to make drastic changes. The election of Pope Francis is one example of how the Church is not merely run by the hierarchy. He was chosen partially to satisfy the demand for change in the Church from members. The problems Francis faces are with stale, old clergy who still want their Church to remain in the Dark Ages and exercise the type of power the Governing Body does over the Witnesses. But, as Francis has explained, those days are past. There are no metaphoric "moth balls" to preserve the old ways. Shape up or ship out. And, this new Pope has made it very clear, the Church will now go after its own in addition to alleged predators facing criminal charges from secular sources.

I'm not advocating becoming a member of the Catholic Church or here claim that it is doing the best that can be expected. There is no excuse for what happened. There's a long way to go to set things right (can they ever?), and more needs to happen sooner, more quickly and efficiently.

But what I am saying is that the Jehovah's Witnesses are not a brave lot. There are no St. Joan's of Arc who face the pale as she did, no "nuns" willing to undergo shipwreck of their faith into doubt to see justice done for other Witnesses, no one smart enough to say: "Wait a minute! There are more of us then there are them! They have to do what we. the membership say, not the other way around!" Most are too selfish to rock the Organizational boat because they want to survive the ever-imminent Armageddon. They can't do this if elders find them problematic or are considering disfellowshipping them for refusing to shut up, and for calling the news media and police on them. I am sure there are a few, but for the most part the membership proudly wear blinders. They are proverbial chickens compared to Catholics, and this is something the Watchtower never tells you in its columns that are oh-so-ready to judge the Roman Catholic Church.

People in glass houses should not throw stones. But the Governing Body and those who follow them by blinding themselves to the problem are too stupid and unjust and cowardly to notice that they have shattered all their windows, walls, and ceiling. Real change can't come merely from without. There has to be some force from within as well.

But heroes are a commodity the Jehovah's Witnesses don't produce. A religion without saints is a religion without bravery.

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

David_Jay

Mephis,

It seems you got your ideas from the Watchtower. Coming from a Jewish family and background, I might want to let you know that what you have written isn't anything at all like the theology any of the branches of Judaism teaches.

First of all, there is no Satan the Devil in Judaism (in Job, God is arguing with an angel assigned to give counter arguments according to Judaism and Catholicism). Second, the focus of Judaism is "tikkun olam" which is not "God doing things on earth" but the Jews learning to cooperate in God's redemption of the human race. And third, God was not "invisible" to the ancient Jews. Repeatedly in Scripture God appears in various forms and the Jews, holding on to human superstition, keep covering their faces due to a pagan belief that "seeing a deity brings death." God continually tries to shake his people from this foolish idea.

These are very basic and important concepts that anyone can learn about Judaism. None of these Jewish concepts were adopted by Jehovah's Witnesses.

Rather Be the Hammer,

As to Scriptures which seem to suggest that "heaven" is a place, remember this is not how Jews interpreted what "heaven" was before they wrote those passages, while they wrote those passages, and afterward. To say God "lives in heaven" or "sits on throne" are figures of speech in Hebrew. Stop a Jew on a street and ask them. Read "Judaism for Dummies" if you have to. One of the biggest problem the Watcthower Org has is reading the Bible as "Gentiles," without regard for the Jewish culture that wrote it.

The Hebrew Scriptures were NOT designed to be read independently of knowledge of Jeiwsh religion, culture, language, ritual, and most importantly tradition (ever see "Fiddler on the Roof"). Heaven is not a place because that isn't the Hebrew concept of "where" God exists. To Jews "where" God is not very relevant.

One has to let go of the Watchtower concepts because for Jews the Bible is not the basis of their religious beliefs nor are they defined by these texts alone. Instead the Bible is but part of their deposit of faith which includes liturgy, ritual, and tradition. For them God's greatest truth is not the Scripture, the greatest truth is God. These are people who claim they have seen God on a national basis in their history. Their history is not just the Bible. It is that event, the Great Theophany, that to the Jews is the greatest revelation from God they possess. By using the Bible, Witnesses only have a fraction of this experience. To Jews, they themselves, as descendants of those who experienced the Great Theophany, are that witness.

God never appeared to any of the Jehovah's Witnesses, not even to any member of the Governing Body. But all JWs believe the claim of the Jews that God appeared to them at Sinai. If you are a Witness you must believe that God did not appear to you but to a different people of a different nation, a different religion. Witnesses are so far removed from this revelation that they only have the book. Jews on the other hand have the experience. If that is true, then who really is of God, those who get visited by God or those who merely read of it in a book?

17

God & universe #1 - God's position and authority

by Anders Andersen in

while thinking about the nature of god, i suddenly thought of something else: how jw speak about god in relation to the universe.. they say that.

jehovah created the universe.

destroying satan and answering the questions that were raised in eden will restore peace and unity in the whole universe.. .

David_Jay

One of the reasons it is worded this way is due to the adoption of Adventist ideas by Jehovah's Witnesses. JWs limit all that is known about God to the physical universe because 1.) that is all that is explicitedly discussed in Scripture and 2.) time is an important factor to this religion, and it's theology demands that God be governed by the same laws of time that we are.

The Judeo-Christian concept of "God" is pre-Biblical and has itself evolved during the time of the Second Temple and up through the formal canonization of the New Testament, which was in the 4th century CE. These concepts, many of which are cultural and part of Jewry, are read into Scripture, especially into Liturgical proclamation.

Adentists and, by default, Jehovah's Witnesses reject almost all such historical theology as false because it is not explicitedly Biblical. There is no liturgy in either of these religions as a result, and therefore no connection to the cultures that formulated Scripture or direct access to any of their traditions. Witnesses would automatically reject such views anyway since there is no or little Biblical mention of them.

This is both problematic and illogical becuase without pre-Biblical ideas and an outside and greater authority than Scripture to dictate what is and what is not inspired Writ, the Bible itself could never exist. "True religion" would have to come first before there could be writers equipped enough to compose any texts. Scripture is produced by religion, not the basis for it. In this case the "chicken" has to exist before it can lay an "egg."

The Witnesses have a theology that limits God's revelation to what is written in the Bible. To them this superceeds the Great Theophany experienced by the Jews at the foot of Mt. Sinai (which is considered by Jews the greatest revelation they ever received), and is more authoritative than the Apostolic witness made up of those who lived side by side with Jesus Christ. In JW theology, only what is "written" is revelation, meaning any other words uttered by Christ are not as authoritative even if there is greater testimony from the Apostolic college or if ever archeological evidence came forth to verify the events of the Great Theophany. It has to be in the Bible or it is "bust"!

Becuase of this JWs have a very childish concept of the God of Abraham. JWs believe that "God" has a spirit body and lives in a "place" called Heaven. Both concepts, a spirit "body" and the belief that Heaven qualifies as a "place" are contrary and even somewhat forbidden as idolatry in Judaism. Both Judaism and Christianity believe spirits cannot possess bodies since a "body" is coporeal, which according to traditional theology is a thing that can only exist in a material state. "Spirit" by the original tradition defies being limited to a "body," as spirit belongs to the realm outside the temporal state where, according to the same tradition, there is no time or space.

Without such fundamentals essential to Judeo-Chrisitian thought, JW religion limits "God" to terminology such as "the universe," and refers to God as a being that has to have the ability to "foresee" events much like a psychic. Judeo-Christian views of God claim the universe as a "creation" making time and space things God created and thus not bound to. Becuase of this God does not need the power to "foresee" events in time as, being greater than time (which is a mere creation of God's), the past, present, and future are all immediately accessible at the same moment. These ideas are not directly found in Scripture as they are far older and were simply understood by the traditions that shaped and the cultures that employed these texts. Thus Watchtower-ism is void of them.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay