David_Jay

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Posts by David_Jay

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  40

  What Religious Trajectory Are The JWs Following?

  by millie210 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading another thread and the comments got me thinking.... https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5656910430732288/pictures-tell-thousand-words.

  comments such as oldskools: more like digital colonialism channeled through one of the weaker and less important institutions western society has to offer.. .

  some have compared the orgs future path to the world wide church of gods.

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  David_Jay

  Millie210,

  It isn't that all systems are destined to go corrupt or end up that way. It is that all are susceptible.

  But the opposite is also true. Not everyone goes the path of injustice. Groups are also susceptible to the wonderful good people can accomplish.

  Go back to the Roman Catholic Church. Is it all bad? Leaving whatever view you might have about its doctrines and about religion in general, how does a corrupt system produce so many good people who do so many good things? We're not talking plain ole JW good, we are talking heroic in virtue like Mother Theresa and others who have made an impression on history, changing the very world itself by the good they do.

  There are atheists who have done equally good humanitarian works. Buddhists, too, agnostics, Hindus, Muslims, Native Americans, Jews--we can go on and on. Good is not limited by one's convictions. It is not exclusive to the relgious nor impossible for the Catholic or non-theist.

  The difference is that Jehovah's Witnesses are lying, to themselves and to the world. Religions and secular philosophies struggle in a search for truth and justice and claim to be on a journey to these things. JWs claim they are the destination and font of all this as they constantly reset and redesign their end-of-world prophecies to make it look like they are not on the wrong path. Whatever you might think of religion or philosophical world views, there is a difference between being on an honest search and being mistaken and being in denial, covering up your mistakes, and claiming you are the only vessel of truth.

  Catholcism, for example, does not teach it is the only way to salvation. It acknowledges that God is not limited by denominational lines when it comes to saving people. Atheists are viewed as equally redeemed as the believer. Jews are not to be proseltyzed nor converted as they are viewed as already on the path to eternal life. True, they are many problems still, unforgivable sins committed by many within, but this is not a religious system that holds much in common with the way JWs believe and act. Can you imagine JWs stating that Jews are not to be converted or preached to?

  Jehovah's Witnesses teach us to be always looking for the solution or even claiming to be or have the key to the solution to everything. These other systems teach people to be the solution, even encouraging many to find new ways of doing so, to make it up as they go, even break the rules to do that. JWs teach people to wait for the solution, that they can't bring one. Other groups, religious and non-religious, yes, even Catholicism teaches we are each responsible for being the solution.

  The greater sin, in my humblest opinion, is telling people to wait for a future solution, doing nothing, like the JWs. In this way you can see that the Witnesses are very different, not just from Catholicism but humanity as a whole.

  An old Jewish proverb says: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends upon you."
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  40

  What Religious Trajectory Are The JWs Following?

  by millie210 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading another thread and the comments got me thinking.... https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5656910430732288/pictures-tell-thousand-words.

  comments such as oldskools: more like digital colonialism channeled through one of the weaker and less important institutions western society has to offer.. .

  some have compared the orgs future path to the world wide church of gods.

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  David_Jay

  Thanks, Millie. Sorry if I pontificated a bit.

  I also would like to add that the similarities between what you have noted may be due more to how humans naturally act than the fact that we are comparing two religions.

  Organizations and especially governments of various types can often have the same type of signature: a hierarchy that seems to control all, a belief system that must be embraced lest you get cast out and even divided from your family, even a "we-have-the-truth" vs. the world philosophy.

  For instance, North Korea has these same earmarks. Imperialist Japan up through WWII had them. The Third Reich and even the Soviet Communist system and countless other secular regimes have been like this.

  What you are seeing is not similarities of religion in and of itself, but the abusive exercise of power by human beings. Religion and secular philosophies are like guns. They kill no one on their own unless a human operates them.

  The Roman Catholic Church did not begin as an oppressive system. On the contrary, it was the oppressed and persecuted and outcast. When the tables turned, it found itself with more than merely the freedom to worship. It found itself with power. When humans get power, the bad seem to find their way to the top in order to grab the reigns.

  When the Enlightenment occurred, nations became more secular. The Church lost its power. With only its freedom, the Catholic Church is now similar to what it originally was or at least in a place where it can be what it was once intended. Just becuase Pope Francis is at the wheel steering, it doesn't immediately wipe away those bad humans who rose to the top. These types all like to call "shotgun" and make it hard for a good driver to steer straight. Until they die or you kick them off, the car never travels well, and sometimes the bad passengers attempt to kick out the good driver.

  As the other examples I previously mentioned demonstrate, it doesn't have to be a religion to be this way. It can be a secular business that is crooked, even a regime that claims to bring freedom to the masses by liberating the people from religion, only to make themselves the ruling deities.

  What you may be seeing in common is what evil looks like, not necessarily a similarity in religions.
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  77

  New commentary on revelation coming up?

  by EdenOne in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i heard through the grapevine about a forthcoming book:.

  together through the great tribulation - come to jehovah's mountain.

  still awaiting solid confirmation though.

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  David_Jay

  Not just the fake chart that has been grabbed from a different source is a strike against this, the cover design screams "baloney" for several reasons. I used to a graphic designer and typographer, and here is what is wrong:

  1. Condensed type on a book cover is a rookie move. English readers cannot easily make out the tall, slim shapes of condensed sans serif type with ease. These types of fonts are decorative, not for cover titles. Not only that, but in this case the title is tiny, taking up not even 1/4 of the cover size. The Watchtower may be many things, but stupid about design and printing they are not. The fact that the secondary title is smaller and thus gets slimmer in the process (another reason you don't use condensed sans serif fonts this way) tells me this is a fake.

  2. The book design does not match the corporate signature of other Watchtower books. Go to the official website and look at the design of the books. Not only are the titles clear and large, but the designs are simple and clear. This is hard to look at, read, and hard to make out. Either the Watchtower is adopting a new design standard or this is a fake.

  I would have been fired for making a cover look like this when I was a typesetter and designer. There are rules to page and cover design. The colors used alone are "no-no's" in a big way.
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  47

  Why are some that post here JW apologists?

  by ctrwtf in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  my rant tonight is against the quasi religious apologists that post on this board.

  those who at once rail against the jw's then later talk about how "orderly" and "neat" the witnesses are at their conventions.

  those who site the benefits of bloodless surgery to some who have the luxury and time to actually make an educated choice, while ignoring the tens of thousands who've died because they happen to be in an accident or succumb to a disease for which there is no other treatment.. i understand the power of cognitive dissonance.

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  David_Jay

  It has a lot to do with the fact that we humans seem to have an instinct that fights against any cry that claims we are incorrect.

  Under normal circumstances it is important to have a firm self-worth, to trust in fundamental axioms we have come to accept as true, and to avoid being wishy-washy lest we never move forward. While it is important to have fail-safes in place that can aid in keeping us from deluding ourselves, it is equally important that we don't second-guess ourselves into an existence of immobility.

  Even in simple and relatively unimportant things we can be stubborn about what we believe and refuse to admit we are wrong about something. We've all been guilty of it, and we are neither proud of these moments in our lives or quick to admit and speak up of these times. Even now, outside of the JWs, we all hold steadfast to our new convictions. We all have different viewpoints now, and we cannot all be right even now this side of the Watchtower, but I am sure we each, individually, believe we are.

  To a degree this is normal, even healthy. But in a system like the religion of Jehovah's Witnesses it becomes a self-consuming muck of personal judgment, guilt, and a desire to do what is right as much as to be in the right.

  So people who are emerging from the cult can and will sometimes speak out of "both sides of their mouth." The battle going on inside to fight this instinct occurs differently in each unique individual, and for some it comes out as condemnation for the JWs one moment and praise for them the next.

  We might be convinced that what we are witnessing is individual "support for an evil cult," but we can be wrong. Entrenched ideas don't disappear overnight. Some come out habitually, some slip out without notice, others get stated becuase the person is flip-flopping on where their allegiance lies. We can't always think that what we are witnessing these people doing is what it appears to be on the surface. If anything, our experience as JWs should teach us the truth that we cannot always trust ourselves and our own judgments about things all the time.

  What we believe defines our identity and our understanding of the universe and our place in it. When what we believe is in flux, the comments that emerge are equally in flux. People can't always see the way before them because, whether in a cult or not, all people can be experts of denial.

  Remember, it is easier to admit that the religion of the Jehovah's Witnesses is wrong. It is hard to admit that we wrong for believing it and staying with it as long as we did.
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  40

  What Religious Trajectory Are The JWs Following?

  by millie210 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i was reading another thread and the comments got me thinking.... https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5656910430732288/pictures-tell-thousand-words.

  comments such as oldskools: more like digital colonialism channeled through one of the weaker and less important institutions western society has to offer.. .

  some have compared the orgs future path to the world wide church of gods.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  David_Jay

  There are parallels between JWs and Roman Catholicism. But the similarities are not necessarily indicative of a guarantee that the two religious systems are sisters or cut from the same cloth.

  Roman Catholicism itself is actually one of three branches of the historical original Christian church, which includes not just the Roman Catholic but the Oriental and the Orthodox churches as well. There was even a fourth, the Jerusalem Church, made up of Jewish Christians, but it dissolved after the Romans crushed the Bar Kokhba led rebellion (what became of the last Jewish Christian bishop, Judah Kyriakos, is unclear). As a consequence the road traveled by the Roman Catholic Church has never been one it followed alone, nor has it had as much control of its destiny as it might seem to some.

  Because the West has exercised such great influence in world affairs, and most of us here participate in the Western world culture, Roman Catholicism seems formidable. But just as the baseball World Series is just a championship among American baseball teams and not of all the various baseball teams on the planet, the power, control, and place held by the Roman Church is somewhat a matter of perspective.

  Roman Catholicism has been shaped by her Oriental and Greek Orthodox counterparts, and even Judaism affects the way the Roman Church moves about. This has changed doctrine considerably in the 20th century, especially with and after Vatican II. Her religious trajectory has never been her own to mark out or determine, especially today where laypersons often wield as much power and authority over church affairs as clerics.

  Because it has no historical links or counterparts, and especially since it believes it has destiny ensured by the Almighty in opposition to the world around it, whatever similarities the Watchtower has to Roman Catholic Church parts at a critical junction: the Governing Body does not bend.

  The churches, on the other hand, do bend to the winds of change. Standards and morals even alter. The churches, after all, do not consist of hierarchy alone. They consist of people. When a pope dies, there is still a church, and church can exist without a pope. But a pope cannot exist alone. Shepherds without flocks are just men standing around with sticks.

  The Governing Body is different. They are like the LDS prophet and the leader of the now dissolved WCG, Herbert W. Armstrong, and that idiot who is still running E-Bible Fellowship despite his last two predictions for the end of the world failing miserably. These types will shout alone on a street corner as the world passes by and mocks them. They are the ones that hold those "The End Is Nigh" signs and those who write ranting blogs that nobody reads.

  Often they attract followers, but sooner or later the show ends. When the guy holding up the sign dies, unless someone is stupid enough to take their place, it ends. And even when someone does pick up the sign, eventually people will realize the sign is old and worn and has never been right.

  I cannot promise that my words are surely prophetic here, but some people run religions because they believe God has assigned them to. They will act as a pope even when there is no church, develop a hierarchy even though there are few or none to wield over. If sheep do show up, they hit them with their rod instead of lead them and protect them with it.

  Jehovah's Witnesses are religious lemmings. Should the leaders run over a cliff, those following will do the same despite the cries of pain the others make as they crash to their painful death. The Catholic Church may have more faults than I can list here, no doubt, but I think the trajectory of the JWs is just a repeat of something else that will end up being a byword.
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  33

  JWs exist because...

  by oldskool in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  one sentence answers only.. here's mine:.

  jws exist because people want an escape from the modern world and are willing to give up intellectual freedom to get it..

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  David_Jay

  JWs exist because many people feel safer compartmentalizing their lives and the world into extremes of good and evil, labeling people as either enlightened and ignorant, and they will give up their freedom in exchange for leaders who will pat them on the back and be that outside source that will constantly tell them that they are right and that others who don't share their views are wrong.
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  12

  The bigger picture

  by Freeandclear in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been awake now for a good while.

  about a year.

  in that year i've done a lot of soul searching and thinking about god and religion etc.... as i'm sure most all of us have who've left this cult.

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  David_Jay

  The paradigm of God created by the Jehovah's Witnesses, however, is quite foreign to many other people who accept the existence of God.

  Judaism and Christianity, unlike the Witnesses, did not begin with a set of Scriptures upon which their religions developed. Judaism composed its text gradually and assembled the canon of the Hebrew Bible only after their return from Babylonian captivity. Christianity had no New Testament until the Gnostic Marcion of Sinope created his heretical canon of an edited form of Luke and some of the Pauline epistles, claiming for the first time that doctrine had to based on "inspired texts."

  Neither of those religious systems are based on the Scriptures. Instead, they composed and assembled Scriptures that reflected what they already accepted and practiced. That is very different from the Witnesses who follow in the path of Marcion.

  Many Jews don't believe in life after death. Their religion teaches them to be grateful for the life they have now and to work to bring healing into the world to people of all races. And while many of them and most of Christianity holds some sort of hope in a future life, they are taught never to live only for then. "If you aren't happy with and focused upon the life God gives you now," my Catholic friend Carlos is fond of saying, "God is certainly not going to give you more tomorrow."

  While I am all for applauding your choice of rejecting religion and God, and I will always defend the right of conscience of anyone who chooses to freely do so, I am merely saying that we should not be so quick to think other religions hold the views we were taught they do by our former education in the Watchtower. They don't all believe or hope in another life after this one or think all you have to do is believe and be saved. Some have no concept of salvation, like Judaism. And while some people do base their beliefs solely on Scripture, the majority belong to religion that composed Scripture, having beliefs and doctrines and practices that are far older than what is written.

  We can still reject God and religion without jumping to the conclusion that we know what everyone believes and hopes and where they get their beliefs. We can be atheist without being judgmental like some religions, like the JWs, and condemn the rest of humanity as being in a cult.

  After all, didn't we just come out of a group that taught us to think like that? Why do we want to imitate their judgmental and intolerant ways? I am sure you don't.
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  47

  I just don't understand this, what am I missing???

  by Greybeard in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as i am watching this video about changes at bethel, the speaker said, "aren't we glad the faithful and discrete slave continues to make adjustments when necessary.

  what about this change?

  "finally, we examined why jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation" that is from this online watchtower article last paragraph: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-prophecy-last-days/ .

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  David_Jay

  Vanderhoeven7,

  I mentioned previously, a couple of times before you asked for clarification, that those idiots controlling this cult still consider themselves appointed by Jesus in 1919, as well as where this is found in their stupid magazines. I guess you missed that.

  It's all stupidity anyway. There was no Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses in 1919, so they could not have been appointed back then.
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  47

  I just don't understand this, what am I missing???

  by Greybeard in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as i am watching this video about changes at bethel, the speaker said, "aren't we glad the faithful and discrete slave continues to make adjustments when necessary.

  what about this change?

  "finally, we examined why jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation" that is from this online watchtower article last paragraph: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-prophecy-last-days/ .

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  David_Jay

  OH, before I forget.

  Previously the teaching was that Christ appointed the anointed remnant over the "domestics" (to bring forth and teach the remaining anointed) in 1919. "All his belongings" included those with the "earthly hope" that started to come in as well.

  Now, the domestics are "all" who are "fed" by the Faithful Slave, anointed and other sheep. This appointment is still taught to have occurred in 1919. The appointment over "all" now refers to the composite body of 144,000 receiving their reward in heaven.

  Also what remains the same is that spiritual Babylonian captivity ended in 1919, but a recent Watchtower says this captivity began sometime after the year 100 CE.--WT March 2016.
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  47

  I just don't understand this, what am I missing???

  by Greybeard in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as i am watching this video about changes at bethel, the speaker said, "aren't we glad the faithful and discrete slave continues to make adjustments when necessary.

  what about this change?

  "finally, we examined why jesus’ arrival to appoint the faithful slave over all his belongings did not occur in 1919 but will take place during the great tribulation" that is from this online watchtower article last paragraph: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-prophecy-last-days/ .

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  David_Jay

  The explanation as to why they keep using the term and why they now apply this to the Governing Body only is found in The Watchtower Study Edition, July 2013, the article "Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave." This articles includes the changed explanation as to "when" they believe Christ will appoint the slave over all his domesticd, and what these include.

  The previous teaching was that Christ returned in 1914, that a 3 1/2 times/years of testing of all of Christianity ended with the anointed (there was no Governing Body then) Bible Students being chosen in 1919 to be over all Christ's belongings.