Posts by David

27

Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr in

i've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.

he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .

then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!

David_Jay

Joe134cd,

The problem with the point you present and that the WT endorses, none of them are supported by Jewish secular history.

The story about Alexander being shown the book of Daniel is considered Jewish legend.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1120-alexander-the-great

The Dead Sea Scrolls play no part in Judaism, nor do they represent anything contradictory to what Judaism claims about the Book of Daniel. It would be counterproductive to claim that a book we cherish and consider to be the Word of God as not a prophecy if we believed it was a prophecy. Apocalyptic works were designed to be read and distributed widely during the period of political intrigue they dealt with. The book could not have reached prophetic status without some record in Judaism that this happened. The Qumran collection is not representative of mainstream Second Temple Judaism.

But this is your choice to view things this way, and it doesn't affect me as a Jew anyway. It involves your view of how we Jews understand our own Scriptures, and you stand to disagree with it and claim you have authority to say I am wrong.

And my apologies to Vidqun. I must admit that I cannot understand any of your writings, though I have tried and re-read them over the past two days. Your points completely escape me, demonstrating where I definitely am lacking. So until I can comprehend them better, I cannot claim that any of what I have written applies.

11

Were leading characters in the history of Judeao-Christianity suffering from psychotic symptoms?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i don't think i've seen any reference to this academic study on this site.

the analysis in question was published in a serious academic journal, the journal of neuropsychiatry and clinical neurosciences, in 2012, with the title, the role of psychotic disorders in religious history considered.. the authors were evan d. murray, m.d., giles g cunningham, m.d.

ph.d, and bruce h.price,m.d.. it was published online october 01, 2012, reference link: http://dx.doi.org/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214.

David_Jay

Girodarno,

I see where you are coming from. To add to what you stated, in particular...

"...it is that semi insane people can and do have a profound effect on the general public if they can present themselves as totally sane."

I can't say there isn't evidence of this as one could argue that this describes Jehovah's Witnesses.

But it doesn't have anything to do with Judaism and its Scriptures, unless you are saying:

There is empirical evidence that the Jewish authors and redactors of the Hebrew Scriptures were insane. I think it would be awesome if you can present evidence that these people were insane because then, at least, we would know who wrote and edited these volumes. Most of the Scriptures were composed by anonymous authors, let alone that we equally have no idea who the redactors were. None of the books fell out of the sky or even off a writer's desk in the form we have today, so this would be an awesome first step in learning who wrote what, despite the fact there were "mentally diseased."

There is such a thing as "semi" insanity. I was unaware that being just a "little" insane meant that part of you wasn't, or does it? If semi-insanity exists, how does the other part of a person remain unaffected, especially when, as you say, the same "semi-insane" people can have such a "profound" effect on others? Your partial insanity can profoundly affect others who are sane but not have enough effect to change you, a semi-insane person, and make you totally insane?

It is more insane to write false stories than to attribute reality to them and base a religion on them. I know this is going to insult some people, so to show it's not my own view I'm going to quote the musical The Book of Mormon: "Wow! God says go to your own backyard and start digging? That makes perfect sense!" I think the actual Book of Mormon is totally false, but I am not sure this means Joseph Smith was insane. I think it says more about you and your sanity if you believe "that ancient Jews built boats and sailed to America," to quote another song from the musical.

Okay, I know that you weren't necessarily writing this to counter what I wrote. In fact you were generally agreeing with some of what I said, it appears. But the report, despite being produced by "sane" and "expert" individuals, still argues an illogical point: blame fiction for your own stupidity of believing the same fiction was real (which you did despite the fact that the culture that produced and uses the very same fiction told you not to take it literally).

After all, who is the real "insane" one? The person who tells you that "God lives on a planet called Kolob," or the person who believes it?

25

List of "pagan" things JW's allow

by problemaddict 2 in

what i'm looking for specifically is things that are "pagan" in the sense they predate christianity (or i guess judiasm to cover the ole mosaic code), that jw's allow or do.

the ones that come to mind are below.. rings - rings seem to originate in egypt.

for wedding ceremonies it became a symbol of "ownership" in rome.. pinatas - looks like possibly it originated in china as a part of the new year and a request for luck, and catholics later turned it into a beating of temptation type thing.. anything else?.

David_Jay

From me, a Jew...Much of our culture was borrowed from our "pagan" neighbors. Aspects of the Bible such as various rules in the Mosaic Law, much in our festivals, dress, etc. comes from the culture of our ancient neighbors.

But first, let me set something straight that the uneducated Jehovah's Witnesses have passed on to many of us that we should think about abandoning:

Paganism refers to the Roman religious system that ran concurrent with Second Temple Judaism and early Christianity (and there are some who practice a religion identified as "pagan" today). This is a particular unique description that is limited when speaking in Biblical terms, limited in scope and to a period of history and polytheistic practices associated with Rome.

What Jehovah's Witnesses should be saying is "heathen," not pagan. "Heathen" is a generic term for any and all religions that do not worship the God of Abraham. Not knowing the difference, JWs keep using a limited term in place or a more general term. Don't make the same mistake.

Now, Judaism didn't really adopt much that was pagan, but we did have a lot in our culture and Law that was heathen. Many in Judaism recognize that Passover was likely a spring festival observed by the Hebrews and their neighbors way before the Exodus. Abraham's clan may have carried it with them and passed it to their children. It would later take on a different significance when the Exodus allegedly took place at the same time. The Biblical account seems to suggest this, linking our use of unleavened bread for Passover with the detail that the escape prevented wait times for proper bread leavening, as if the command from God came after this situation and was based on this fact (though it is placed before it in the written narrative).--Note Exodus 12.39 with 12.18-20.

Many of the Laws in Torah did not introduce new ways of living, such as how to handle marriages, sex relations, treatment of women, slaves, etc. Instead the Law governed these aspects of life already in place, customs and mores borrowed from heathen cultures which the Jews held in common. JWs might have you believe God invented and introduced these laws at Sinai, as if the Jews suddenly had an entire culture and way of life cast upon them overnight. Nope. We lived pretty much like our heathen neighbors, and the Law merely introduced new ways of governing this behavior.

So, guess what. A lot of what you find Jews doing in Scripture when my ancestors are following the Mosaic Law was, indeed, pagan...I mean, heathen.

JWs don't know the difference between a pagan (Roman) and a heathen (anyone who does not worship the God of Abraham). So it should come as no surprise that they are confused as to what is "pagan" and what isn't, and whether this makes something wrong.

11

Were leading characters in the history of Judeao-Christianity suffering from psychotic symptoms?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i don't think i've seen any reference to this academic study on this site.

the analysis in question was published in a serious academic journal, the journal of neuropsychiatry and clinical neurosciences, in 2012, with the title, the role of psychotic disorders in religious history considered.. the authors were evan d. murray, m.d., giles g cunningham, m.d.

ph.d, and bruce h.price,m.d.. it was published online october 01, 2012, reference link: http://dx.doi.org/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214.

David_Jay

Also, be careful you don't become like those you hate.

Jehovah's Witnesses call those who leave "mentally diseased." Have we just dispensed of the doctrine but left the attitudes upon our exit?

I understand people's anger and even deep hatred for religion. It is not unjustified. To be honest, there is not enough uproar in my opinion regarding what we suffered and what continues to go on under the shadows cast by the Governing Body.

And while everyone deserves their opinion, how logical is it to claim that the characters in Jewish literature must be suffering from psychotic symptoms? If you already claim they aren't even real to begin with, how intelligent is it to further declare fictional characters as 'suffering from psychosis' because in the genre narratives (which is a story about a deity communicating with people), some of the people in the story talk to another character who happens to be a deity?

Would people waste time and money producing a study declaring that Luke Skywalker and other Jedis in the Star Wars stories had mental problems because they heard voices and moved things with their minds? It would be ludicrous to do so because these stories aren't meant to be taken as fact. In the genre narrative some characters have these powers, and the story moves along as if certain aspects, like mind reading and control, are true.

And if somebody told you the stories were factual and you believed them for years, changing your life based on this idea despite George Lucas screaming out, "They're just fiction!" Why get mad at the stories and even Lucas because you believed someone not associated with Lucas that Star Wars was fact?

And then you turn around and blame the stories and George Lucas because you ignored George who kept telling you it was fiction all the time? And that sounds sane?

How are "studies" like this and similar views warranted or even logical? Just because you believed a snake oil salesman and turned over all your money to him is no reason for you to go around killing snakes. They had nothing to do with it.

Can't you just admit you were wrong and stop blaming the snakes, fictional characters, authors, and a book? Even if the book claimed that it was 100% fact, it still isn't the book's fault or its authors that you believed in that claim.

If you believe that Uncle Sam is a real man living in America and that Paul Bunyan is his landscape specialist, you can't blame Americans. Sam and Paul aren't insane because you were gullible enough to believe fictional characters were real.

And it doesn't speak too well about your own sanity that you keep blaming fictional characters for your own mistake.

11

Were leading characters in the history of Judeao-Christianity suffering from psychotic symptoms?

by fulltimestudent in

jw
friends

i don't think i've seen any reference to this academic study on this site.

the analysis in question was published in a serious academic journal, the journal of neuropsychiatry and clinical neurosciences, in 2012, with the title, the role of psychotic disorders in religious history considered.. the authors were evan d. murray, m.d., giles g cunningham, m.d.

ph.d, and bruce h.price,m.d.. it was published online october 01, 2012, reference link: http://dx.doi.org/10.1176/appi.neuropsych.11090214.

David_Jay

As a Jew I am very bothered by the term "Judeo-Christian."

It is like Christians can dictate how Jewish Scripture is to be translated, but what we say doesn't matter. So if Christianity teaches that the stories of the "Old Testament" are literal, we get blamed because, "after all, it's all a part of Judeo-Christian culture."

So you end up believing that my forefather Abraham literally attempted to offer up his son as a sacrifice.

You end up viewing our narratives about Moses as history.

You lump Jesus and Paul into the same group as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...even though those who followed the teachings of Paul and Jesus later apologized for the part they played in the pogroms, the tortures of the Inquisiton, and the genocide of the Jews in the Holocaust.

For centuries we have declared our stories as legends and moral plays or history retold as religiously reconstructed opera, but off you have gone ignoring all this. Then when you learn the truth about these writings, you blame us Jews and our stories for lying to you.

Sorry, but we didn't tell people that the Hebrew Scriptures required a lens named "Jesus Christ" to understand them.

Some among us might see more history in them compared to others, but we never promised anyone that they were supposed to be read at face value. If you read our works through the eyes of those who can't even read our texts unless they are translated out of Hebrew into another language, why are we to blame?

The term "Judeo-Christian" is nothing but a farce. There's nothing Jewish about it except what has been taken from us and interpreted without us.

Sorry if you listened to Christians and they gave you the wrong ideas about Jewish tales, but why blame Jews or the stories themselves? If you really wanted to understand them, why did you go running to non-Jews and folks of a different religion? If you want to know what Buddhists believe, would you ask Mormons? Should people learn the truth about atheists from Jehovah's Witnesses?

Don't point the finger at our legends and mythology. We weren't the ones who told you to read them out of line with Jewish thought.

27

Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr in

i've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.

he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .

then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!

David_Jay

Vidqun,

See if you can read this correctly.

The comment I made was that the "Daniel" mentioned in Ezekiel is not the author of the Book of Daniel. You wrote: "Scholars insist that the persons mentioned in above scriptures are examples of the past and has nothing to do with the writer of the book of Daniel." I totally agree, and that is my argument. I don't know why you are finding a problem with a point upon which we both agree.

My words do not concern whether Daniel was historical, whether or not he was faithful or an idol worshiper, or whether the current legends of Daniel in Judaism have value. I was countering the JW views regarding the Book of Daniel, not making an argument for a real Daniel or claiming he was a good man. For all I know the Daniel you are speaking of was an idol worshiper. I don't know if there was a historical Daniel, personally speaking.

So I still don't know how you came up with conclusions that I was speaking against the conclusions you have come up with. I wasn't. They are quite identitical. All I can think of is that you were not reading them in full context, perhaps mistook that my position was supportive of something else and this colored your reading to misunderstand the whole thing.

16

Sin Inherited Humankind

by looter in

so jws believe all humans have faults, problems, birth pangs, etc., because we all inherited sin from the original human being adam.

like i would like this to make since but why would jehovah do this to future humans who have done nothing wrong at all?

i think of it like if a parent has one child and that child really disobeyed her before then when the parent has a second child, she punishes that child because of what her first did.

David_Jay

Judaism finds the teaching that Adam's sin is inherited as impossible to reconcile with Ezekiel 18.20 which states that God does not count the sins of our ancestors or parents against us.

I've used this with Christians who were so certain I was headed to Hell for "not being saved," as they say. They either get very angry, go into denial of the importance of Ezekiel's words (my favorite is: "Well, you Jews can't understand Ezekiel correctly because you don't have Jesus!") or storm off declaring I obviously can't be reasoned with.

27

Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr in

i've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.

he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .

then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!

David_Jay

Vidqun,

I had to walk away due to a telephone call. But I do have one thing to add in conclusion.

Appreciating your convictions and points, I also don't want you to see this as a cop out on my part. To illustrate how some of your points you presented may not stand under scrutiny, let me demonstrate a mistake you have been making in how you read my statements. You wrote:

Although Daniel is here included with Job and Noah, this does not mean that Daniel lived in their day. He was a contemporary of Ezekiel who had great respect for him.

The Scripture texts I cited do not claim that Daniel lived during the time of Job or Noah, nor could that be considered the point. None of these persons listed are considered contemporaries in Judaism or their Scriptures, so how did you arrive at this interpretation of my words?

Neither did I claim that they were contemporaries in my writing. I merely stated that Daniel is a Jewish hero, and was considered to be one of those heroes before the Babylonian deportation according to Jewish history, Jewish legends, and the Scripture texts from Ezekiel.

You concluded something due to your point of view. That is natural, but this caused you to project these mistaken views onto my comments and you have reached incorrect conclusions.

Ask yourself: why did I conclude that David was saying Daniel was a contemporary of Noah and Job? How did I miss the actual point? Could views or habits learned while a JW still be lingering and keeping me from reading texts or comments colored by a particular approach? Could anything else I've concluded be based on a similar misreading, regardless of the cause, and could a more objective reading help me at least comprehend what was originally written and its aim?

Try to be a little more objective next time to avoid making conclusions never suggested by the material of others. It will help you understand them better, even if you never end up agreeing with them.

27

Proof that Daniel was written 400 years after the events it describes and how much it gets wrong

by purrpurr in

i've been studying the bible anew and have just realised that the writer of daniel gets the kings of babylon completely wrong and confused.

he says that nebuchadnezzar was succeeded by his son belshazzar .

then along comes good old cyrus the great who liberates the jews.. yet this is wrong!

David_Jay

Vidqun,

Thanks for your critique.

Do note that though I am a Jew, I do not necessarily share the views I've posted that you have worked through. They represent a very brief explanation of certain Jewish theological theories and views but not necessarily my own. They are also not in any to be taken as exhaustive.

Because of this your very well-written comments have little effect on what I wrote as they aren't original personal views or convictions that I can change. There is, however, far greater explanations with even more pertinent and far more reliable data in multiple Jewish sources, as well as conflicting views.

Believe me, there are far greater minds than mine who developed such thoughts as I expressed, and your arguments can only be with them as only they can change them or declare you have a point. I cannot change views that aren't my own or that I don't even possess.

The information was presented to show there are counterpoints to consider. Unlike the JWs who see things in extremes, Judaism acknowledges that there is likely to be alternative views and those yet undiscovered that can only add to a better understanding regarding theology. Things are rarely "one thing or the other, but not both" as in Watchtowerland.

20

WT Article - David Versus Goliath—Did It Really Happen?

by ttdtt in

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-no5-2016-september/david-versus-goliath-real/.

the article ends with this:.

there is no real basis for doubting the truthfulness of this historical account.

David_Jay

In Judaism we do not treat this account as literal history. It is more like legends told in American heritage history, like Washington chopping down a cherry tree and confessing it as a youth. The literary device used in Jewish Scripture is somewhat identical in purpose.

The text shows redactions added over the generations until the section was finalized into the form accepted as Scripture. The size of the enemy is obviously a narrative device to compare him to the "tiny" David, but it's creative liberties used to teach reliance on the Hebrew God gets lost when they are minimized or ignored by calling it literal history.

The legendary account actual contains a "legend within a legend." While originally meant to be a story like the young George Washington, the way the original story came to be repeated in Judaism was later added as a secondary addition within the original text. The later redaction is found within the original story, set by the latter author(s) at 1 Samuel 17.12-31, with details added in vss. 50-52 and a conclusion added in 17.55-18.5.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay