Posts by David

36

Many of the atheists are doing better than religionists!

by anointed1 in

i got up today to listen to the shocking news that russia’s ambassador to turkey was assassinated at an ankara art exhibit, and assassin was acting in the name of god.. it seems things have evolved to the other extreme that atheists are doing the work of religionists and vice versa.

while religionists take delight in killing fellow humans in the name of god, there were many atheists who followed very elevated morality.

the french existentialists and writers jean-paul sartre and albert camus were some of them.

David_Jay

Anointed 1,

You say that a 'person who doesn't believe in God has no obligation to care for anyone,' which I think is an unfair judgment. I find many of my atheist friends, especially ones here, who consider caring for their neighbor a serious obligation. One does not have to have a belief in God to be moral, just, or feel obligated for caring for their community and making the world a better place. Some of history's best examples of this are atheists and agnostics.

I think some here, including myself, a Jew, might see this as stereotyping. That's an unfair use of labels, don't you think. Just the other day I saw Simon, the man who runs this board, do something very caring, moving and brave on this site because he obviously has an innate sense of honor for caring for others. He doesn't believe in God, but rest assured I don't think he or other atheists like him think this somehow makes them without obligation.

I also think you are judging things from a Christian perspective. I wouldn't say that what I do as a Jew constitutes a "belief" in God. Beliefs are the holding of a static concept in the mind, often abstract, a mental assent to a particular concept without doubt required of Christians to belong to their particular denominations. As a Jew I have to agree with James on this one: "You believe in God, you say? All well and good. But so do demons, though the thought scares them."--James 2:19.

Beliefs in of themselves are not always beneficial, though people fight over them as if they were money. Who says that people who believe in God have a responsibility to care for others? Does it mastter? It's just another belief, a mental spark, that a person can fulfill or fail to live up to. So what if a theist doesn't live up to their beliefs? Beliefs are not tangible. If your belief doesn't move you to act accordingly under test, what good is assent to a mental concept, a definition someone demands that you agree to hold onto in your head?

What people accomplish is what matters. Everyone fails, regardless of those "beliefs" so many feel are so important. True, they can and should inspire a person to do good, but again beliefs are static. Holding onto a belief is not the same as doing something like living up to it.

Belief in a God is a label. You cannot prove that your mental assent to this concept is being grasped exactly as necessary to meet the criteria set by some theologian. Disbelief in God is just as intangible. Neither mental concept can gift a person with abilities to do good or bad. Can an atheist guarantee that they disbelieve in God as much as necessary to truly count as an atheist? Can Christians guarantee that they really believe in something like the Trinity accurately enough and complete enough to warrant membership and avoid excommunication?

A Christian might place an obligation upon themselves to care for their neighbor and not live up to it. So? Didn't they themselves place this obligation upon themselves? Even if this obligation really came down from Heaven, didn't they still personally agree to place this obligation upon themselves? Placing an obligation upon oneself, even one that comes from a deity, is no guarantee that you can live up to it.

Now I am a Jewish, someone with a religion. Obviously your belief that "religionists" act or fail to act a certain way doesn't apply to all people with a religion. If all religionists were the same I wouldn't be writing any of this. Because of my religious upbringing I take the stand that it is humanity that commits the failure, not the beliefs or lack thereof. These beliefs or non-beliefs are just labels people often hide behind or proudly wear or use as an excuse to judge others. The common denominator is the human behind the belief or non-belief.

So just answer me this: Does anyone have to have a message from Heaven to be obligated to care for their neighbor and are religionists the only people who fail at this?

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

No.

Judaism is far different from Christianity. Beliefs mean little to nothing. Stevie Wonder Boy asked a question about halacha, the Law, and I have given him an answer. Simple.

I didn't make up the answer. There is just nothing in halacha that forbids the whole "collecting wood" thing, and that is the closest I could provide on the dilemma of this text because of the difference between halacha and these verses.

What do I believe about this? Nothing really. Belief is not required and since there is no law involved here I have no investment. So it isn't possible to rationalize on something I don't have an investment in.

The problem comes with many ex-JWs being exposed to the "belief" paradigm that is central to Christianity. It just doesn't exist in Judaism. Beliefs in Christianity are just static mental concepts, often about abstract things that are supposed to be transcendent. You have to assent to these to belong to Christianity and if you doubt even the most abstract of them you can be excommunicated. We don't really have that in Judaism.

You might not like halacha or how it is applied here, but all you can do is argue about it with a rabbi or specialist on the subject.

Again, no on the Devil's Advocate thing. I was merely asked a question and I answered it. If there's a hole in an argument I point it out sometimes, but the main reason is to help Witnesses who may be secretly reading threads to come to better skilled conclusions.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

Village Idiot,

To rationalize about something means to believe in what you are explaining. I don't necessarily agree with this or any explanation I offered here.

One thing people tend to never read from me, though I repeat it again and again, is that I try to stay extremely objective. I am not offering up my opinions or my beliefs. Note carefully how I word things. Unless I say it's my opinion don't think it is.

I may be Jewish, a practicing Jew, but my views don't necessarily match anything I write unless I say they do. I note a lot of people assume I am writing what I believe because they can't seem to write about anything except in line with their own convictions.

I take into account that my personal convictions may not be right on the matter. Thus I offer what I know is taught on a particular subject if I have that information available.

But this is not my rationalization. It is merely the explanation as to why Jews don't see this as a law. There is no law in Judaism that lines up with what happened in Numbers. Just because I repeat the Jewish theological stand on the matter doesn't mean I believe it.

If you believe it is circular, get off your the Internet and argue with a rabbi about it. I can't try to rationalize about something I don't believe in.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

Stevie Wonder Boy, you said:

Like the Ten Commandments, Christ needs little explaining.

I have no beef with Jesus, even as a Jew. If you say Christ needs little explaining, that is fine with me. But you need to do a lot of explaining.

You wrote:

The "Law of Moses" is the law of Moses not the Law of God written on stone.

But Jesus said: "If you had believed Moses, you would have believed me, because he wrote about me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"--John 5:46-47.

You are obviously very wrong about what you write and believe. Jesus here states that "Moses..wrote about me." In other words, Moses wrote prophecy about Jesus. And as Scripture says: "No prophecy ever came by human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2 Peter 1:21) If Moses who prophesied about Jesus did so in the Torah, in the Law of Moses, but this is not of God, then how can Jesus be right? Jesus said that Moses wrote about him? Obviously Jesus is here saying that the Law of Moses is from God. And if the Law of Moses is inspired of God, then it is also the Law of God.

At Mark 7:10 Jesus states that "Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother.’" Those words, "honor your father and your mother" are one of the Ten Commandments, but here Jesus says that came from Moses.

At Matthew 19:17-19 Jesus teaches: "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." And then he lists them: "You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness;honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself" is not one of the Ten Commandments, yet Jesus views them as one the commandments we need to keep. At Mark 10:19 Jesus says one of the commandments is "you shall not defraud," but that isn't true. The laws about loving your neighbor is found in Leviticus 19:18 and the law against defrauding is at Deuteronomy 24:14.

The words "law" and "commandment" are used interchangeably by Jesus to refer to the entire Law of Moses, including the Ten Commandments. Jesus sees them all as the same thing, inspired by God, and foretelling his coming.

And remember Jesus added about Moses: "If you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?" (John 5:47) Obviously his writings are supposed to be believed in as inspired of God, God's Laws, and necessary to be believed in as such as a requisite to believing Jesus' words.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

Rebel8,

Of course a lot of "cruelties" in the Hebrew Scriptures are often based on interpretations made by Christians and others who don't think critically enough to consider the Jewish view. Are you sure they happened? Have you asked the Jews before you arrived at your conclusions?

Like the previous poster who asked about the stoning of a wood gather, seeing it as a law against gathering wood on the Sabbath, people seem to skip over what should be the first and foremost rule about the Hebrew Scriptures: ask a Hebrew what their own writings and culture mean.

It's like the man who spent an hour yelling at me telling me that Jews approve of genocide due to what the Bible says about Jews conquering the people of Canaan.

He eventually stopped yelling mostly because he lost his voice in the process, but he did add: "As an atheist I find your own Jewish history self-condemning."

"And as an atheist I gather you don't believe in God?"

"Duh, that's what an atheist is, you moron."

I continued: "Do you at least believe the Bible is true?"

"Of course not," he replied. "It's just a bunch of made up stories."

"Except for the part where it says we Jews conquered the people of Canaan, right? That part is true, right?"

He looked at me with marked confusion. "Huh?"

I continued. "Though you don't believe in God or the Bible, you do believe in the Bible story that says we escaped slavery in Egypt, crossed the desert, and then some how managed to overtake every single indigenous tribe and people of the Fertile Crescent, even though they outnumbered us and were our military superiors in every way? Really? How is any of that true if there is no God and the Bible is false? Where did you get the story from in the first place? From a source you don't believe in? Then why are you arguing against something you don't believe really happened?"

This to placd before a crowd of onlookers. He left, red in the face.

Jesus approved of the cruelties in the Old Testament? Really? By whose interpretation of it? Be careful what you argue for or against. The fool who wastes his breath arguing against the existence of Santa Claus only proves what he doesn't like, not whether a non-existent man is or isn't.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

And to answer your question, which I forgot to do, since Jesus was a Jew, he would not have viewed gathering wood as a capital offense either.

I think the idea that Jews think this is a "capital offense" comes from literalist and Fundamentalist Christian readings, like some Evangelical movements and Jehovah's Witnesses. They view their interpretation as correct, never inquire about what Jews actually believe, and then project their misunderstanding onto Judaism and its practices.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

Jews do not believe that gathering wood on the Sabbath is or ever was a capital offense.

The account in Torah at Numbers 15:32-34 tells about the stoning of a man who was caught gathering wood on Shabbat, but his sentence doesn't match anything that Jews know about Torah and the Sabbath. According to the Mishna (Shabbat ch.7), gathering is not a type of work forbidden on the Sabbath.

Therefore the account in Numbers is NOT stating that gathering wood is forbidden on the Sabbath (note there is no law that states this in Scripture). The man perhaps was doing something either in the way he gathered wood or the reason why he gathered wood that caused him to be stoned.

People often read this text in Numbers as if this man was old and frail, and he was suffering, perhaps cold, and thus needed wood. But this isn't likely as he was likely surrounded by family and neighbors. The man might have been rich, powerful, and he may have been forcing others to gather wood.

Recall that the account starts out by saying that Israel is in the desert wilderness in verse 32. Why? We know this. They aren't in Egypt and we know they have yet to reach the promised land. Perhaps the man was doing something that caused great hardship, disrespect, and even raised quite a bit of eyebrows in the community. Note that the entire camp of countless Israelites gets involved. Why? How did the camp know that one, single man was gathering wood? Where are the witnesses? Why does verse 34 say there was "no clear decision"? No clear decision about what? The wood? The penalty?

And this is also a short narrative stuck in the middle of laws that have nothing to do with the verse. What gives? Jews don't know.

So no, it is not nor ever has been a capital offense in Israel to gather wood on the Sabbath. The basic principle stands in Judaism that if human need calls for it, the requirements of Sabbath rest are to be broken to avoid hardship.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

Stevie Wonder Boy,

Jesus taught that Moses' own writings were the Word of God, stating that Moses "wrote" about him. Jesus adversely judged those who did not follow what Moses "wrote." (John 5:46-47) Jesus also taught in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus that Moses should be obeyed. (Luke 16:29, 31) I am a Jew, and as I point out here from the Christian Scriptures, I know that Jesus taught his followers to listen to Moses and follow what Moses wrote.

32

Jesus Christ was no Moses

by smiddy in

moses has a history of what 80+ years as a servant of jehovah ?

in one form or another .. moses wrote / penned the first five books of the bible and went through many trials and tribulations in serving his god jehovah in his long lifetime.interacting with god at times.. jesus was born and nothing is recorded of him until he is a young adolescent child ?

and very little about him.. then we are introduced to him when he is 30 years old and gets baptised ,and only then does he start his preaching .. does he start preaching to the world ?

David_Jay

Stevie Wonder Boy,

That might be taking it a bit too far, at least from a critical analysis of the situation. Most Jews would argue the point, and outside of it being your personal view on the matter (one that must be respected), it can't be said that one man's religious view of Jesus can be the final word.

Besides, speaking of the Mosaic Law, Jesus himself taught: "Whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven."--Matthew 5:19.

Jesus here teaches that the true measurement of "greatest" is obedience to the teachings of Moses. It is not Moses that is great, but the faithful adherence to the Law of God that makes a man great. One who is concerned about whether Jesus is greater than Moses or vice versa would do well to put themselves to the test as Jesus taught. How well does our life align with the teachings of God?

Jesus is obviously not talking about what religious doctrines you believe in because later he mentions that a Samaritan, a member of a false religion, is an example for all to follow. (Luke 10:29-37) Jesus teaches many who believe he is the Messiah will be rejected in the end. (Matthew 7:21-23) Jesus teaches that people who don't even know they are serving Christ will gain eternal life while those who didn't believe they ever came across an opportunity to personally serve him will be forever damned. (Matthew 25:31-46) So being concerned whether Jesus is greater than Moses or vice versa won't help in the end. Only upon understanding that people like the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, the ill, the imprisoned and otherwise disenfranchised of the world are as great as Jesus (and deserve to be treated as such) does anyone have any hope according to the Gospel.

16

Jesus not perfect and here's why.

by Crazyguy in

the bible is a inspired book of god and like and elder told me when i was young , there's no contradictions in the bible and all the prophecies have come true except the two or three that are supposed to come true in the future.

so with that said the messiah jesus christ himself must not be perfect and here's why.

in mark chapter 2 jesus is telling his followers that it's ok to pick wheat on the sabbath and mentions the story about david eating bread that was in the holy place ment only for the priests to use.

David_Jay

Post script: another indicator that this is not about the conversation is that this narrative is discussing Sabbath observance. Only Jewish Christian observed the Sabbath. The day after the Sabbath was the meeting day for Christianity. Gentile Christians did not observe the Sabbath.--Compare Acts 21:20 with Colossians 2:6 and Romans 14:4-6.

When the sun set on Saturday, Jewish Christians were free to assemble for worship with Gentile Christians. Sabbath observance made it impossible to do this sooner. This may explain why Paul's discourse at a Christian meeting ran into the late hours of the night and led to Eutychus falling out of a window. The Christian service began as soon as Jews were able to join, on "the first day of the week" which began after the Sabbath ended on Saturday evening. (Acts 20:7) Thus the need for many lamps since it was Saturday night. (Acts 20:8) The details in verses 9-12 fit perfectly in starting "Sunday services" at night, as soon as "the first day of the week" began according to Jewish standards.

That the subject of Sabbath observance would be necessary by the time the Gospel was written down is highly unlikely. So the point of the narrative in Mark 2 is likely not about Sabbath observance but about where to align oneself as a Jewish Christian.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay