Posts by David

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

David_Jay

Ruby456,

Don't mistake my words as implying that others do not derive their culture from religion. My words also don't imply that we don't sometimes arrive at the same spots, Christians, atheists, and Jews (though rarely). The manner we travel can differ highly nevertheless.

Our brief conversation here may illustrate how difficult it can be to explain a non-Western concept to someone who has only been exposed to Western ones influenced by Christianity (in this case likely the "black-and-white" compartmentalization of Jehovah's Witnesses). A secular Western society built upon and/or having emerged from Christian culture can differ from that of a culture built upon another religion. If that other religion is not based on adherence to a creed or beliefs, how is "secularization" defined? How would you do it?

In Christian based-cultures secularization gets defined by a lack of belief or faith. Those who "go through the motions" but do not "believe" are not considered good or authentic Christians. When one does not mentally assent to the creed, one becomes "faithless," and technically that usually spells a loss of religion.

In Jewry one's belief has no salvific value nor ensures or denies membership. Jews can have all sorts of beliefs and can even reject certain standards of Judaism (Reform Jews, for instance, don't accept the concept of a coming personal Messiah). Humanistic, Reconstructionist and Jews that claim atheism have no "belief" in God but can still clearly practice the religion: lighting candles and reciting prayers on Shabbat, holding a Seder on Passover, etc. Zionism is totally "secular," so to speak, but it is founded on concepts from the Jewish religion.

See what I mean? What is "secular" has to be defined by something totally different when belief, creeds, and faith do not play a part.

To conclude, there is the example of one of my best friends, Wally. Wallace is an atheist, born into an atheist family. He never practiced any religion (except for perhaps "worshipping" Richard Dawkins for a short time...until he saw "militant atheism" backfire in his home state of Louisiana and then Dawkins started saying things like God "probably" doesn't exist--Wally, really lost a hero there for a while). Today Wally practices Buddhism, and we get along fine. Oddly, however, Wally didn't immediately recognize that his "anti-religious" stand was being violated by himself. Buddhism, as you know, is a religion but it doesn't actually involve the worship of deities (though some debate this). After a bit of self (soul?) -searching, Wally came through this, still practicing Buddhism where it adds meaning to his life.

But I found it odd, in the end, how he was terrified about "coming out" to his family as gay. There has been no religion in his family for a few generations. All of them are atheists. Still, he had misgivings, had something inside him that made him feel it was wrong to not be heterosexual, and we had many talks about this for almost 6 years before he was able to come out to his family. (They weren't surprised and were totally accepting.) Today he has a great husband and is raising a family (with a mixture of Buddhism tossed in). Wally is a great example of the questions of what makes a religion, a religious person, what defines "beliefs," where secular does and/or doesn't mean, and an example of crossing or blurring lines.

So what I've been saying is that there are perhaps more questions than definitive answers.

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

David_Jay

Ruby456,

No. Definitely not. I had no intention to say or imply that Judaism is "leading the way." Also, as included in that article from Cambridge I cited, it should be clear that I was also not saying that religion was the default setting for all culture.

No, instead what I am talking about is that religion is often defined from a Western point of view, seen through a lens a bit tinted by Christianity. This is a bit close-minded but undertandable. Because we've been Jehovah's Witnesses (most of us have) and most of us nothing else (maybe a similar type of Bible Christian), we have been taught to see religion as a creed or set of beliefs one assents to. This leads to people debating with atheists and atheists with them over beliefs: one says they believe this, the other says they do not believe it. The two agree, however, that religion and God involve the requisite of "belief."

But there are religions where belief plays little to no part. Buddhism and Judaism, for instance, are practiced, not believed in. Judaism doesn't require any of its adherents to believe in a creed or assent to any doctrine or even hold any particular concept of God, if any at all. Being Jewish is who you are and what you do. God to us will always defy conceptualization, and unlike Christianity we do not foresee a day in which "all will be revealed" and we will know God fully and see God face-to-face. Belief takes a back seat when your God has no face to reveal.

What I was saying is that this very ingredient of religious people like that of the Jews, a religion that is performed not mentally assented to like Christianity, created a culture and a people based on their performance of that same religion. In turn it has allowed for God to evolve from that static concept confined to the pages of Scripture (at least in Judaism). You can believe in Judaism all you want, but it will never make you a Jew. Judaism is an active response to their God concept, even when the Jew who performs it is atheist. (And most of the debates here revolve around very ancient concepts of God which haven't been held in Judaism for millennia.)

Like the OP stated, religion here has had a use. It created and preserved a people. But is this a use that can be discarded? Can you take away this type of religion and still have Jews who are defined by it? True, it may have introduced a concept (monotheism) that caught on, but its evolving view of God doesn't seem to be appreciated. My final questions in my post were therefore rhetorical. I don't see people willing to more past the "religion=belief" paradigm or the one where God is not limited to what can be read in ancient texts, not among Westerners anyway.

74

Was/Is Religion Useful Even if it isn't True?

by cofty in

in his book "the righteous mind" jonathan haidt proposes that religion served - and continues to serve an important role in bringing about cohesion within non-kin groups.. to put it very briefly haidt advocates a form of group selection but only insofar as it applies to humans.

our unique brains have made it possible for us to cooperate in groups in ways that are impossible for all non-human species.

despite their intelligence you will never see two chimps helping each other to carry the same log or one chimp pulling down a branch while the other removes the fruit.. his description is that humans are 90% chimp and 10% bee.

David_Jay

What is considered “religion” today was not necessarily the same thing in the past in all cultures. Ancient gods and their cults with their mythology served ancient nations much as flags, a coat of arms, and the political folklore serve modern societies today (consider American legends such John Henry, Johnny Appleseed, Paul Bunyan, and even fictionalized narratives and events in the lives of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Paul Revere).

Not all gods and their cults were as cohesive to ancient life and culture as others. The worship of YHVH by the Hebrews was at first extremely divisive. Monotheism, and the worship of an invisible deity that had no image was not an immediate crowd pleaser for the Israelites. Even the Scriptures tell of how often the Hebrews employed household gods and embraced idol worship as their neighboring peoples did, even for generations after the Exodus.

It was not until the Davidic dynasty that archeology begins to find support for the mythos of the Nevi'im and the united worship of YHVH. King David appears to have made it his state religion at the expense of all the other Hebrew gods, and a conquest intended to bring the tribes of Israel under the one dynasty and worship of the one God failed when the nation divided into two: Judah and Israel.

A peculiarity is also noticed in that the monotheism of YHVH under Judah was quite different than the formula used for heathen and later pagan deities and their cults. The gods of the Gentiles were made in the image of humans: they were anthropomorphic and were cursed with the same jealousies, vanities, and other failings mortals had to deal with, often mirroring them to their own detriment and the universes they ruled over.

The monotheistic God of Abraham was the opposite. First and foremost this God resembled nothing human, nor was YHVH imagined to have the failings that humans did. There was a vast separation constantly portrayed in the cult between humanity and God, with even the only physical representations of God (the Shekinah and the Ark of the Covenant) hidden from view. No image of this God was possible because unlike pagan deities YHVH was not anthropomorphic. Even in the mythology of God, YHVH is a self-designation that is nothing more than circular reasoning: “I am defined by what I am.” While Xenophanes of Colophon came close to grasping the concept of a single and transcendent deity that was “not at all like mortals in body or mind,” for the most part YHVH didn’t catch on with Gentiles. YHVH hardly caught on with the Jews until after the Babylonian exile.

But it should not be a foregone conclusion that religion was almost universally subscribed to in the ancient world. A University of Cambridge study on ancient history demonstrates that atheism thrived in the ancient world of gods and temples and cult priests and priestesses. Religion may never have been the “default setting” for humanity much as the worship of YHVH was not as useful a tool for national unity as some might suggest.

One must also not excuse the earliest views of YHVH in the Torah and Nevi'im as devoid of all humanistic traits and faults. Often the God of Abraham comes across not too different from the gods of the nations. The sacrificial practices of the Hebrews (which they inherited from their Gentile neighbors) are often attributed to God as is their lack of egalitarian views when it comes to dealing with other races, cultures, and even among the sexes, all of which gets attributed to God as if such behavior is based on instruction is from heaven. The description of battles and their subsequent plundering (which in more often than not is over politicized in favor of the Hebrews, if not outright fictionalized in the name of poetic licence for Biblical narrative purposes) makes YHVH appear outright bloodthirsty and uncaring.

The description of the God of Abraham changes almost overnight with the approach of the exile to Babylon however. The prophets describe a God that doesn’t require the sacrificing of animals or demands the spilling of any type of blood. YHVH of the prophets decries violence, claims that the religious priesthood is corrupt, and teaches that Torah is supposed to come from the heart and not from writings on stone. Even the psalms written in this era have God refusing the slaughter of beasts upon altars, like the prophets demanding personal repentance and faithful justice as offerings instead. Festivals are bemoaned, the Temple is condemned, and even the previous religious view the Hebrews had of God is challenged.

It is in Babylon that the cult of YHVH becomes a religion and becomes the useful tool that preserves the identity of the Jews. Judaism is born, one that teaches the children of Abraham that they neither need to literally possess a land or have a temple or offer sacrifices in order to serve God. A religion of egalitarianism begins to start (albeit painfully slow), and even with the fall of the Second Temple it does its job of preservation.

But is it still necessary? Today the concepts of monotheism in Judaism have evolved far beyond the static representations found in Scripture, so much so that Christianity and Islam which sprung from their cult has not (and may never) catch up. With the introduction and now rapid growth of post-denominational, post-rabbinical Judaism a new jump in monotheistic evolution is happening, and as the gulf widens between Jewish concepts of the God-concept and the still picture of the unchanging God adopted by Muslims and Christians, the line between religion and cultural identity of the Jews blurs. How much is worship of what was once called a deity thousands of years ago and how much makes up the earmarks of a people called the Jews? Is it all religion? Is it all culture? Is it a mixture, indivisible and now something different? And is this something different serving a new purpose yet to be understood until that purpose is served?

And what will happen if the other monotheistic faiths catch up with this evolution of God?

13

A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS

by David_Jay in

jw
friends

as most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.

around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.

there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.

David_Jay

LongHairGal:
Maybe I missed it but were you raised Jewish or did you convert after leaving the Witnesses?

I am a Sephardic Jew, a Hebrew.

My parents were abusive so an aunt of no blood relation took me in. She was one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I went to meetings, field service, etc., with her from there.

When I was 17 I began to prepare for baptism as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. But my blood relatives protested and said it couldn't be done. Being that they mostly speak Ladino, they tried to phrase it the best way they could, saying I was one of the "Mexican Jews" and thus could not become a Christian for that reason.

The elders studying with me told me that my family was lying, that it was impossible for someone to be a Mexican Jew, that this was Satan the Devil using a trick to try to stop me from becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses. So I got baptized. I was 17, and I didn't know any better.

About ten years later, when Portugal and Spain began to set things in motion to welcome back descendents of those Jews who were expelled in 1492 (via the Alhambra Decree during the Spanish Inquisition), I was contacted by a rabbi. That was also the time the Catholic Church opened documents from the Spanish Inquisition to the public, allowing descendents to read the records.

When this evidence came to light the elders would hear none of it from me. Realizing that I got baptized as a Jew and with ties not only to Spain and Portugal but Zionist connections to Israel (and with none of the elders willing to discuss the matter with me to help me make sense of things) I left the organization and (unlike the wife of Lot) did not look back.

It turns out that what my family members meant by saying we were "Mexican Jews" is that our family was among the group of Jews that settled in Mexico and founded Monterrey. When the Mexican Inquisition started we escaped into what is now South Texas. To this day I can go down to Monterrey and when I speak people marvel at my accent and use of unique Ladino words since city natives have a particular dialect due to their ancestors having picked up a little Ladino and merged it with colloquial Spanish.

Technically speaking my baptism was invalid, so you might say "technically" I was never "officially" one of Jehovah's Witnesses. (But I became a pioneer and ministerial servant nevertheless.) The elders, of course do not see it this way so made me write a letter of disassociation (which I did under protest, but didn't care at the time since they were being so mean about things).

Today I laugh about it because for people who are supposed to be members of the one and only true religion, they sure know nothing about Jews. Not knowing anything about the Alhambra Decree, the Spanish and Mexican Inquisitions, nor that history remembers the "Mexican Jews" who settled there for a short time--well, it doesn't speak very well of an organization that is supposed to represent the God of Abraham. (I can still remember seeing and hearing one of those elders laugh in my face and say: "There's no such thing as Mexican Jews.")

13

A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS

by David_Jay in

jw
friends

as most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.

around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.

there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.

David_Jay

Thanks again to all for the replies and support.

@Smiddy and kpop: I may pop in from time to time to see how things are going. But I was a JW as a teenager back in the 1980s and I left way before many here came in. The version of JW religion I joined ended some time ago. Whatever it is that replaced it, I have no idea. I have no interest in catching up by going online to the JW's new website and reading their new materials. And it seems people here have a more of an issue with religion and theism in general, not in the specific doctrines of the Watchtower.

Since Jews don't believe in proselytizing, and hearing things about religion even if the details are just meant to be educational proved to be too much for some people, I feel I have little to offer. A few particular individuals had even made a sport of insulting me every chance they got and let me know via posts and messages. I know they were just projecting their pain from the Watchtower onto me, and therefore it wasn't really personal. So I knew there was little I could do but let people heal in their own way. I couldn't stay just to be their whipping boy. I need to keep living the best life after the Watchtower and letting that be my "testimony." But I so want even those people who were very bitter towards me to heal, even if it means removing myself from the picture. They deserve it. I really care about everyone who has suffered so horribly from the Watchtower experience.

@LoveUniHateExams: Yeah, I never really liked saying "speaking as a Jew." I actually cringe when I type that. I would have rather not have had to say anything, but it helped to reduce the tension most of the time.

The first day I started posting here people attacked me, called me vicious names, sent some horrible messages my way, and for what? All I did was point something out from the Bible. It turns out that some of the people I mentioned above to Smiddy and kpop are not only hurt, they think everyone who quotes the Bible is a Christian, a theist, or a JW supporter.

So bit by bit I tried to make it clear I was not these things. But a little bit of explanation was not enough in the end.

We all ate a lot of poison from the Watchtower. When you ingest something bad, you need to vomit. Sometimes you have to vomit for days. For some, hearing any comment that might suggest support in favor of religion can be nauseating. This is a place to let it all out. And as a Jew, even one not advocating their own personal convictions, just the fact that I needed to make that point apparent should have been a suggestion that what I was posting might not have been the right word for the right audience.

But for the most part all was a great experience here, and for some to remember and let me know they were thinking about me during this time was so touching I had to say thank you.

13

A Special Thanks ESPECIALLY to ATHEISTS

by David_Jay in

jw
friends

as most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the united states where i live where many of our jewish community centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats.

around the world many jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.. while i have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), i have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though i did post a few times too while i have been here).. it has been touching and very helpful when muslims, christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people.

there have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know i am not alone.. some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other jews during this time.

David_Jay

As most of you know there has been a rise in antisemitism in the world as of late, especially in the United States where I live where many of our Jewish Community Centers and schools have been subjected to bomb threats. Around the world many Jewish cemeteries have been vandalized too.

While I have left the forum earlier this year due to a need to move on with my own healing path (and realizing this forum is doing quite well with the many bright minds already among the crowd), I have briefly returned mainly to write this note of gratitude (though I did post a few times too while I have been here).

It has been touching and very helpful when Muslims, Christians, and people of other faiths have stood with those of us in the Jewish community to protest this wave of hostility against my people. There have been many public displays of solidarity with us against these acts of hatred and prejudice and some personal notes from friends letting me know I am not alone.

Some of you have been among those who have voiced your concern for me and other Jews during this time. I want to thank you all, regardless of your personal convictions. After leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses it can be a confusing thing to stop and do something like this, demonstrating solidarity with Jews against this form of prejudice (something Jehovah’s Witnesses practically never do), but this has not stopped some of you from doing this right now. Regardless what spiritual path some of you have taken after you left the Watchtower, you have let me and others know you are standing with the world against this new rise of old hatefulness.

But especially do I want to thank those of you who are atheist, those of you who are also standing against this wave of prejudice against the Jewish people. Sadly, almost every experience I’ve had in which I was the subject of antisemtism came from a religious person. And while most Christians today are definitely also against this form of discrimination, my most recent experiences with this type of behavior has been mostly from Christians.

Some atheists on this board have let me know personally how much they are against what is happening. The same are usually very vocal about how they personally do not believe in theism or the Bible or religion. But some of the very same have been the ones to let me know they can put that aside to take their stand against such hate against the Jewish people and their communities. They have reached out and let me know they cared.

So while I am grateful to whoever you are, those of you who have stopped to locate me or send a message to let me know how you feel, I want to send a special note to those who are not theists but have done the same. To you especially I write: your wholehearted stand against this rise of hate in the world touches me, and I am most grateful to people like you. The world is a better place with you in it.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

David_Jay

Pale.emperor,

And that illustrates a marked difference between Jewish theism and Christian concepts of God. Christians expect there to be more than this life or that God has to prove his love for his creation by guaranteeing happiness and/or good health.

Some Jews don't accept the concept of life after death or that unhappiness disproves the possibility of God. Even those who do accept the concept of the World to Come do not focus their lives upon it. Judaism teaches to live focused on now and to worship God not because it will get you anything but because God has already brought you to life in this world.

In the end, it is okay to reject all forms of theism, even the Jewish concepts. It matters only to me that all people, including atheists, are allowed to hold their views with dignity and without constant threat and challenge from those who feel they must convert or judge them wrong.

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

David_Jay

Deism is rejected by Judaism. As the Jewish Encyclopedia itself states at the end of its entry on the subject: "Judaism is theistic, not deistic."

496

This is What I Would Need in Order to Believe

by cofty in

sometimes theists challenge atheists about what evidence would be required before they would believe.

various unlikely scenarios are offered in reply.

i have taken the bait myself in the past.. i think the correct answer is much more ordinary.

David_Jay

If the god of christian theism did exist a lot of simple things would just make more sense.--Cofty.

Thanks for saying this.

This could be the problem. You might have made or have been handed a golden calf of sorts and been expecting it to be this great God that Christianity claims it is, and when it doesn't live up to the Christian claims you declare: "See, there is no God." But a golden calf, even if it be made out of the most precious stone, and even if you aren't the one who made it, is still an idol. It was never God to begin with.

I will not argue that you leave behind atheism for theism. As a Jew I find this a ridiculous demand and, to be honest, against my religion to think atheism is something bad. As long as you are a moral person and you do not worship false deities then you are perfect just as you are. In fact, by being an atheist and speaking about it to others you may be helping turn others from worshipping false gods. In Jewish theology you are neither required to be a Jew or a theist to have a place in the World to Come, you need only be just and moral.

The God of Abraham according to Jews is not something that can be fully grasped by the human mind, defined by religious doctrine, nor guaranteed by all the faith a man can muster. In fact, the word "God" was merely borrowed by the Jews to describe what they understand to be the Great Cause of the universe. Because people have come to accept that a deity is the highest being that must exist, then we use that word to describe the Great Cause. But in reality that are no such things as gods.

Our God is not a being that exists floating around somewhere in heaven, like the fairytale interpretations Gentiles have stuck to our ancient legends and traditional fables with moral lessons. Prophecies are not ambiguous phrases that can only by understood "in the light of Christ" and have to deal with the future of the Gentile world's history. And our God doesn't match the idealistic "all-loving" hippie picture Christians have painted him over with, making him out as if God is some kind of Santa Claus that you ask things of and, if you're good, you will get the toys you've requested on Christmas morning.

The Great Cause of the universe may even be less personal than Christans claim God is. This Great Cause may be the scientific mathematical center of laws that governs all to be as it is. Some Jews see this Cause as the universe itself and all its secrets yet to be tapped and discovered by science. Some see God as greater than all this yet, but whatever God is, Judaism has one thing it knows for sure about God: something that Great will defy understanding and demands of doctrine that humans can possess and invent. God may not even be as perfect as Christianity says God has to be.

Yet, our God gets blamed when the Christian golden calf fails to speak. When its prophecies don't become reality, our God gets blamed. When Christian interpretation get exposed as fraud it's is our Jewish Scriptures that get blamed.

I am glad Cofty made a purposeful differentiation between the Christian view of God in the very beginning. It is important to keep this in mind. Jewish monotheistic though has advanced, no...EVOLVED like everything else does in nature to become something far more advanced and logical than the static views of Christianity. So I thank Cofty for making this point clearly from the beginning.

We say the Bible is our history in allegory and mythology, Christians often say it's genuine history and use the writings of our prophets as a crystal ball that is supposed to be concerned with foretelling the future for Gentiles. We say it contains Jewish religious truths and they say it contains scientific facts. We say it contains lessons that must be adjusted to meet future needs and they say we must adjust our present lives to match its ancient, outdated demands.

So please continue to differentiate between Scripture and God and those who have sold you something different. That golden calf may be pretty, but don't blame our God for not being a giant floating gold bull in the sky. God is not what you've been taught, never was that thing, and never will be.

9

Christianity (Including JWs) Debunked

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

1 cor.

15: 21,22 rnwt: for since death came through a man,+ resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.+ 22 for just as in adam all are dying,+ so also in the christ all will be made alive.. .

so according to the nt jesus makes alive those that die in adam.. given the overwhelming evidence that adam as a man did not exist jws lose the battle on this verse.. however foolish christians like pentecostals and catholics like to call adam figurative.. okay... read it again^^^^^^... .

David_Jay

I am sure you heart is in the right place. But you arguments need a little sharpening up to work.

Being Jewish I neither believe that Jesus was the Messiah or in the concept of "original sin," and I totally accept evolution. However it sounds like you are confusing JW claims for what other religions actually teach as well as stuck reading the Pauline texts from the limited Watchtower perspective.

First off, both Catholicism and Pentecostals believe in the historicity of Adam. The only difference between the two faiths is that Catholicism sees the Genesis account as allegory while Pentecostals generally embrace a Fundamentalist interpretation, reading the Genesis account as literal. So that needs to be adjusted.

Next, the references in 1 Corinthians 15 to Adam introducing "death" into the world does not mean to other Christians what Jehovah's Witnesses claim it does.

The Jewish Annotated New Testament (which employs the NRSV text) has a very hearty footnote to these verses. Being that Paul was Jewish, the reference points out that unlike how the Watchtower interprets these verses, i.e., that Adam passed death to the rest of humanity via our DNA or something of that sort, Paul was likely employing the art of midrash to make a slightly different point.

Midrash is a Jewish form of hermeneutics that plays off the fact that the Hebrew tongue and its idioms are highly terse. Most other languages are not, but Hebrew very much is (meaning that one word can have a variety of subtle meanings). Here Paul seems to be quoting not Scripture but early rabbinical thought from the Second Temple era. Some Jewish sages and rabbis from this era taught that human "mortality" was introduced via Adam's envy, and that the Genesis account was an allegory claiming that humanity has wanted God out of the picture since the beginning (i.e., 'envying' God). The first personification or embodiment of this envy as the "Devil" in a religious text came shortly afterwards as found in Wisdom 2:24, an apocryphal Jewish writing (written around 100 BCE.)

While it is not clear if the text is calling Adam's envy "the Devil" (as Jews generally don't believe there is such a thing as a spirit enemy of God and humans) or if Wisdom is (for the first time in writing) introducing the Devil as a spirit being similar to Christian belief, Paul nevertheless does expand on this ambiguity via midrash in 1 Corinthians.

While Judaism does not teach that we die because we inherited death from Adam as a punishment, Paul via midrash took these elements to play off this illustriously. However, even Paul was not advancing the idea of Original Sin. That is a doctrine the Catholic Church would not introduce until much later. Paul's statement is related only to the Second Temple era theology (and it was not universal among Jews of the time either). The idea that all in Adam are dying as opposed to all in Christ being made alive is not literal, not in the first part anyway. He is merely using the illustration about Adam in arguing his point that resurrection is corporeal, not something that happens when someone dies and goes to heaven (the idea advanced by some that Paul is arguing against). By contrast Jehovah's Witnesses refer to a "heavenly resurrection" which is etymologically incorrect as the term "resurrection" refers only to the reanimation of physical, dead bodies.

All that aside, and as I do not subscribe to Christianity, I don't accept Paul's teaching even here. But what he is actually saying is far different than what you are describing (which seems to be the fault of the JWs never allowing you to learn outside their influence, not yours). Your conclusion has merit, but others outside the Watchtower will simply slice through the details in your argument for the reasons I pointed out. They need to be sound enough to stand up to mainstream theological academia. JW teaching does not.

A footnote: none of the Biblical genealogies are meant to be complete. All of them are based on outside sources, some oral and some written which no longer exist, from which only select names were taken in order to build a narrative in the context in which they occur. Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible is the main source for these records, but the Bible was never the ultimate source for Jewish records, especially genealogical ones, since marriage and business contracts relied upon them. Copies of the Scriptures were never widely available even among the Jews until after the 17th century CE, so it would have been impractical to keep our records in the Bible. One therefore cannot base arguments for or against evolution on them (and remember, I accept the evolutionary model).

David_Jay

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