Yes, for those who may wonder about my last post, the language was purposefully facetious. The message is true but I thought using some language JWs use in their publications would present it with a sardonic touch.
David_Jay
JoinedPosts by David_Jay
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
David_Jay
Djeggnog wrote:
No, I've no interest in arguing with you over anything...
Adding:
I spoke in opposition to your view of the dats when Nisan 14 occurs in 2017. I don't recall saying anything to you here about "worshipping according to Bible truth"; you made this up.
First of all, speaking "in opposition" is presenting an argument. If you had no desire to do this, you would have never posted anything "in opposition to your view of the dats [sic] when Nisan 14 occurs." Arguing is "expressing opposing views in an exchange" or "to speak in opposition of another's view."
This you were clearly doing to begin with. The reason you replied now is because you had no answer to give me. You had immediate answers for others, but you could not answer mine right away. So you took the time to research it.
Finding you could not argue against the facts I presented, in order to save face you finally came back and now claim that you just don't have an "interest" in the subject any longer.
And I was not saying that you personally made a claim about "worshipping according to Bible truth." That is the teaching of the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. I was speaking against their claim. If the Memorial was really taking place on Nisan 14, the Full Moon would not have risen a day earlier.
And if you do not agree that the Jehovah's Witnesses do not teach according to Bible truth, then you are telling us that you don't believe what your religion teaches. But on the other hand, if you do agree that the witnesses teach according to Bible truth, then you have just demonstrated that you cannot explain the point I countered with.
The solution is simple. Either the Witnesses are wrong and that is why you couldn't give an answer, or the Witnesses are right but you are bad at explaining what they really teach.
Either way, no one should pay further attention to you. If the religion is false, who wants to listen to you--a member of a false religion? If the religion is true, who wants to listen to you--a bad example and bad teacher of life saving truths.
We Jews are still celebrating the Passover for a few more days yet. Part of this celebration is to declare liberty to those enslaved even today. People can be enslaved by false religions and even bad teachers of truth. Whatever happens to be the case with you, what kind of Jew would I be and what kind of liberty could I declare if I did not speak up against the tyranny of falsehood?
Remember how Elijah challenged the false prophets of Baal? He proved their worship was false since they could not get Baal to ignite their sacrifice. If your worship of Jehovah were true, there would be no question you could not answer. You would not merely say you have no interest. You would have the answer immediately, as fire from Jehovah ignited Elijah's offering. Is not the "sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of our lips" greater than the offerings of the Jews? (Hebrews 13:15) Is not the spirit of God with you? Why are your lips not ignited with the flame of the spirit, the power from Jehovah that should light your offering of "the fruit of our lips"? Why no answer after all this time?
That is because you are like the prophets of Baal. You do not worship Jehovah. You claim to and make an idol of his name, but you fail to offer the 'sacrifice of praise...the fruit of lips.' Jehovah cannot fail, cannot offer imprecise dates for the Memorial, nor be powerless to give one of his true worshippers the ability to light their "sacrifce of praise."
Therefore you are like the prophets of Baal, a worshiper not of the God of Abraham but of a false idol that enslaves people to the imprecise, imperfect direction of fallible men who run the organization that offered the Memorial on the wrong day.
Passover is a call to end all types of slavery. So if you wish to offer your words that enslave people to your false religion, in the spirit of Passover I declare you another false teacher like Jannes and Jambres. And I declare all who have left the Jehovah's Witnesses freed from the tyranny of falsehood, from slavery to lies.
Be gone, you false representative of the God of Abraham. You are but a worshiper of a dungy idol you call "Jehovah" but is anything but!
-
58
Why the Memorial Is Held on the Wrong Day
by Leolaia intonight on the evening of april 18, 2011, observant jews worldwide will celebrate passover seder, a night "different from all other nights".
the watchtower society annually schedules the memorial for jehovah's witnesses on a date that is supposed to coincide with the jewish observance of passover, as it would have been reckoned during second temple times (in particular, in the first century ad during the life of jesus).
this year the memorial was observed last night, the evening of april 17. the two religious observances are thus a day out of synth, at least this year.
-
-
David_Jay
Anony Mous,
Actually, the Jehovah's Witnesses are holding the Memorial on Nisan 16 this year.
The first night of Passover was Monday night, and that was Nisan 15 (we Jews observe it on the 15th and NOT the 14th, as the 14th is the Day of Preparation). The Full Moon of Spring (often called the Pink Moon) waxed fully on Monday night over Jerusalem and the rest of the world.
Tonight the moon has begun to wane, and since sundown it has been the 16th of Nisan. I just had my second Passover Seder tonight (we do it twice, the first night and the second of Passover). The JWs are very off.
-
16
God never knew Jesus would be killed?
by venus injesus gave an illustration with a landowner being the central character:.
“there was a landowner who planted a vineyard.
he put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower.
-
-
David_Jay
TheWonderofYou,
Christian scholars are not saying that the term "son" does not occur.
What they are saying is that it is set in the Gospel narrative as a prediction of Jesus' rejection by the Jews and subsequent crucifixion, for Matthew 21:45 states:
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they knew that he was speaking about them.
Neither Thomas or any other evidence on hand claims Jesus declared that this parable was about his Passion. The idea that it, along with the other parables of Matthew 21 as foretelling the crucifixion, and with the Jewish leaders responsible for instigating it no less, is not found in the earliest sources.
-
16
God never knew Jesus would be killed?
by venus injesus gave an illustration with a landowner being the central character:.
“there was a landowner who planted a vineyard.
he put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower.
-
-
David_Jay
Jehovah's Witnesses have to put on blinders when it comes to this and like sections of Scripture. But Christianity is general doesn't suggest much better.
To illustrate, in the NABRE, the official Catholic Bible of the United States of America, the footnote to this parable reads:
Because of that heavy allegorizing, some scholars think that it does not in any way go back to Jesus, but represents the theology of the later church. That judgment applies to the Marcan parallel as well, although the allegorizing has gone farther in Matthew. There are others who believe that while many of the allegorical elements are due to church sources, they have been added to a basic parable spoken by Jesus. This view is now supported by the Gospel of Thomas 65, where a less allegorized and probably more primitive form of the parable is found.
This, mind you, is from the Roman Catholic Church, the denomination that makes claim to writing and officially selecting and canonizing the Gospel of Matthew. (If one counts this this happened when the Catholic Church was united with the Orthodox Church before the schism, this claim is not without some historical merit.) In other words, contrary to JW teaching (and due to critical analysis of manuscript transmission), this was not a "prediction" of Jesus or even uttered by him.
After the death of Jesus, his followers had to develop a way of making his crucifixion appear as if it were "part of the plan" from the beginning. In this instance a parable of Jesus appears to have been extended and such liberties taken with it that it now reads in such a manner to teach that the upcoming Passion events of Jesus never caught Jesus off guard (and thus shouldn't shake his followers who may be stumbled by the idea of a suffering and dying messiah).
It needs to be emphasized that Catholics see this type of interpolation as part of the "inspiration process." Jesus never really spoke this parable exactly, but by virtue of the fact that his followers wrote this and the Church canonized it emphasizes their conviction that this "added" meaning was written under the direction of the Holy Spirit. This is how John 16:13-14 is interpreted in reference to this, not that the Spirit would introduce further teachings but would interpret what had occurred and been said by Jesus in a new light.
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
David_Jay
Djeggnog,
Lunar months begin with a New Moon, literally a darkened moon face. The moon waxes larger and brighter each day until the middle of a lunar month which is marked by the Full Moon. The month ends when the moon turns dark again. The cycle takes about 29 or 30 days, with Nisan always marked as having 30 days.
This means that the 14th and 15th days of the month are the days upon which the Full Moon lands. The 13th is too early, the 16th is too late. If April 11, 2017 is supposed to be Nisan 14 (after sundown) by JW calculations then something is wrong. The moon after sundown will already have a sliver of darkness upon one side, called "waning." It waxes or gets filled as the Biblical lunar month of Nisan reaches the middle day of the month (the 15th) and wanes as it pasts that middle day.
Passover is always on the middle day of the month of Nisan. If the moon is waning, you have passed the middle of the cycle. Since the Full Moon past last night, today after sundown the 11th of April can neither be the 14th or 15th of Nisan. The visible and astronomical Full Moon was last night, and thus after sundown the moon indicates that it will then be the 16th of Nisan.
While I too appreciate the fact that varied points and opinions occur here on this forum, you cannot escape the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses are observing the Memorial this year AFTER the Full Moon. This is the point I made to begin with when I made my original post on what I am doing on April 11th.
To all onlookers here it is clear you are not producing any empirical evidence to contradict the fact that according to the moon's phases the middle of Nisan has passed. The 14th of Nissan cannot land on the evening of a waning moon, neither Biblically nor astronomically. At the latest today has to be the 15th of Nisan, as Jews claim it is, making tonight after sundown the 16th.
This is the most important yearly event for Jehovah's Witnesses. With all due respect, it speaks against the claim of worshipping according to Bible truth when you claim that tonight marks the 14th of Nissan and it is clearly visible that the Full Moon waxed last night. If you cannot make your arguments coincide with what can truly be seen by all humans worldwide when looking up in the sky, your claims are false.
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
David_Jay
Djeggnog,
Tonight is the night of Spring's Full Moon, not tomorrow: http://www.space.com/36419-first-full-moon-spring-2017-shines-tonight.html
This particular moon is currently observable from Jerusalem as I write this. Tomorrow night will not be the Full Moon. JWs are incorrect, therefore. Pesach occurs on the night of the first Full Moon of Spring.
Your arguments don't mean much in the face of the fact that a Full Moon is occurring right now over my homeland. But believe what you wish. The evidence is in the sky right now.
Now if you will excuse me, it's time for me to celebrate Passover.
Chag kasher v'same'ach!
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
David_Jay
By the way, this means that Passover ends the evening of Tuesday, the 18th of April. I am not sure what your calendar is marking after that date.
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
David_Jay
Djeggnog,
While your calendar that you printed here is somewhat correct, Passover is observed on Nisan 15, not on the 14th. It is an 8 day festival, beginning with a Seder that begins at sundown on the 14/15th and merges with the 7-day Festival of Unleavened Bread on the 15th.
First, the Jehovah's Witnesses are following a lunar calendar that they made up, not the same used by the Jews which uses the astronomical New Moon (and not a visible one) to determine the beginning of a month. There is no Sanhedrin in Jerusalem to determine when a visible New Moon begins (which was an unreliable, impractical, and if it occurs during a cloudy night, imprecise manner to determine a month's start). The Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has taken it upon themselves to act as the Jerusalem Sanhedrin and pretend they are watching Jerusalem's sky (which they are not). You cannot determine in advance when a New and Full Moon should be discerned from Jerusalem if it has not happened yet.
Next, and most important, we are talking about the merging of two feasts. Literalist Christians, like the JWs, refuse to acknowledge both Jewish tradition and secular history that shows that Passover predated the Exodus. It merged with the 7 day festival in observance of the Exodus from Egypt to create the holiday you see today. (See Hebcal.com at https://www.hebcal.com/home/1247/pesach-on-15th-of-nissan-vs-the-14th for more info).
As I write this it is Nisan 14, the day of preparation. After sundown we (already) mark(ed) the day by searching for the last of the chometz (leaven) by candlelight. We then observe the Passover with a Seder the following evening on the 15th of Nisan.
This year the 10th of March after sundown marks Nisan 15. Tuesday, when the Jehovah's Witnesses hold the Memorial will be Nisan 16.
Jehovah's Witnesses know very little about what they are doing. Remember, this religion was started by white, Gentile men in America at a time when anti-Semitism was an earmark of Christianity. Jewish "notions" were once rejected by all Christians until the Holocaust, so JWs felt it was their Christian right and duty to "restore" the Jewish calendar as they saw fit.
After the Holocaust, Christianity in general recognized that its own shortsightedness and bigotry contributed indirectly and sometimes directly to the Nazi's genocide of the Jews. Thus afterwards Christian scholars accepted Jewish academia as authentic and authoritative.
This, however, never changed groups like the Witnesses. To this day they even claim themselves as the main target of the Holocaust. So while they observe their Memorial, claiming it is Nisan 14 like a bunch of April-fool idiots, it will actually be the second night of the Passover holiday, Nisan 16, on the Jewish calendar. We call the entire feast Pesach or Passover now.
To determine the actual date on the Jewish calendar anywhere, visit Hebcal.com regularly.
-
103
What will you be doing on the evening of the 11th ?
by Phizzy inmrs phizzy and myself will be eating out, sure in the knowledge we will not have jw's using the same restaurant.. i may have a cigar along with my brandy at the meal's end to celebrate my (our) freedom..
-
-
David_Jay
As that will be Nisan 16 on the Jewish Calendar, that will be the 2nd day of Passover for me and my family.
Our meal on the 2nd night is cabbage rolls stuffed with hamburger, with a sweet tomato sauce over steamed rice, yellow cake with chocolate frosting (kosher for Passover), games, hilarious reenactments of the Exodus with an emphasis on the 10 plagues (which is essentially a pillow fight of plush toy frogs, cattle, plush matzo "balls" for hail, etc till they split apart--we're mostly adults now) and traditional Pesach songs modernized to sound like rock songs and show tunes.
This is essentially what we will do Monday night, except we hold a full Seder (but very relaxed and filled with humor). Monday night we have brisket and potato kugel.
Oh, and lots of wine and grape juice and more matzo-mayhem than you would expect.