Posts by David

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

What Jews find repulsive is claiming that people require salvation. Humanity is neither condemned under some curse of sin nor requires a salvation of any sort. All people, including atheists, are inherently very good to begin with.

Jews also acknowledge that this life may be all there is. So we focus on that. If there is an eternity, it is not entered into by the Gentile religious trait of having to "believe" in doctrines or theological concepts.

Jews also teach that religion is not a requisite of all people. Being just is, but belonging to a certain religion or worshipping any particular God, even ours, is not.

The idea that people should be subject to proselytizing, being told they must change their current convictions or even some of their cultural traits or beliefs less they get less of a reward than others in eternity, that I find appalling. As long as my neighbor is just, they needn't be anything more than they already are.

And if there truly is a World to Come, then they surely have a place in it--not because they believe in anything in particular, but because they are inherently good to begin with.

Proselytizing, as you know, is considered an act of anti-Semitism by Jews when Mormons attempt it with us. And I personally view the act just as insulting of an action toward anyone else for it tells a person that they have change something or lose out for not doing so.

25

Does the Average R&F JW understand what grace is in Christianity ?

by smiddy in

i`m showing my ignorance here , not being an active member of any church before joining jw`s as a 19 yr old ,whenever i was ever confronted with the question of "grace" i was always at a loss to give an effective answer from a jw point of view.. was it just me ?

or did anybody else have a similar experience ?.

(ps , i dont think i ever heard the expression " grace" in a religious sense in all my 33 years in the borg.studying the wt.).

David_Jay

Again, this is the "Marie Antoinette Syndrome" at work.

Especially when people are born into the JW religion, and especially if they leave rejecting all religion afterwards, it can be very difficult to understand what are elementary and very basic religious concepts to others.

While it isn't a bad thing to never get involved with religion again after leaving the Watchtower, it can leave the exJW dumbfounded when they attempt to read poetry, try to understand art, or even cause problems in their attempt to keep their critical thinking at its best. For instance, the Christian concept of "grace" has inspired music, plays, paintings, caused wars, and in 1999 became a bridge between Catholicism and Lutherans in general when they came to agree on the concept (thus ending what started the Reformation in the first place). One cannot even fully appreciate the song "Amazing Grace" and its historical significance without this basic knowledge. Though as a Jew I don't have this same concept in my religion, I at least know what the Christian view means.

The significance of these things and other subjects based on nominal theology (which is never taught correctly or at all to Jehovah's Witnesses) can leave a person who has left the Watchtower lacking a significant amount of education in things necessary to understand the world around them. Some atheists often refer to other atheists among ex-JWs and ex-Mormons as a "narrow atheist" since their stand is limited to only what they've been exposed to. (The term refers to how sometimes their narrow exposure to only cult teachings cannot be used to argue against other religious systems these have no knowledge of, thus limiting their atheist stand.)

It can be difficult however to leave the "narrow" state. Dealing with what humorist Reba Riley has termed "Post-Traumatic Church Syndrome," the distaste for religion (and distrust) can be so great that ex-church members might not be able to endure corrective education even for the sake of merely understanding concepts generally shared in the world community.

This is one of the most horrible effects of cults. It can rob a person of learning simple terms as comprehended by most, thus making it challenging to at least know the basic meaning behind why people do things, create art, or what they mean when they speak of their particular convictions. Again, most people (even non-Christians like myself) understand concepts like "grace" as taught by Christians (even though we don't ourselves subscribe to it). But for some others, even the ability to heal enough to stomach learning these things has been stolen by their cult experience.

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

David_Jay

While as a Jew I do not subscribe to this doctrine, the "ransom" of Christ is his becoming the "Lamb of God," an offering to humans as "food" for their journey to "passover" from the mortal state to that of the divine.

Originally atonement theology was very basic. It suggested that God was being appeased by the suffering of his own Son. But it changed over the centuries, and currently the teaching is that Christ offered himself to humans, not to God. As 2 Peter 1:4 states, Jesus paid the price of himself in order to "enable you to share in the divine nature."

As the lamb was food for the Exodus out of Egypt for the Jews, the life of Jesus is Viaticum, food for the journey to pass from mortality to share in God's divine nature. Jesus flesh and blood are "paid" over to humans as "true food" and "true drink," not on an altar to God but on a table to humans.--John 6:55.

"Redemption" is different, however. It refers to restoring people by legal claim, or restoring something to people by legal means. Jews view the Exodus as God's redemption of his people from slavery. God paid no one to redeem the Jews as God owes no one. But God had legal claim to them by means of the Abrahamic covenant. The same covenant claimed rights and privileges to the Israelites that they could not possess as slaves in Egypt. Thus a "redemption" took place via the Exodus. Redemption in this sense involves restoration.

Some Christians still hold to an "appeasement" view of Christ's ransom. In these instances, "redemption" is somewhat of a synonym for "ransom" in a paradigm when Christ offers a sacrifice to God.

But where the theology that rejects appeasement exists, "redemption" keeps the original meaning as used by the Jews. In Christian terms it refers to restoring what was lost in Eden (according to Christianity's Original Sin doctrine), giving this back to humans via the "cost" of Christ's sacrifice.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe in appeasement theology, where God requires blood to be spilled to appease his sense of justice. This view has been rejected by almost all forms of mainstream Christianity today. Even some Fundamentalist movements find the appeasement view appalling as it draws God as a bloodthirsty deity.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

Thank you for your comments.I appreciate your reply.

This is actually very different from Judaism which doesn't believe it's possible to perfectly know beyond doubt.

But I find it interesting that you and other LDS members have such a religion. I wouldn't subscribe to anything like that, but that is me.

61

Would human settlement of Mars invalidate Bible prophecy?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't think this topic has been discussed before but yesterday i read something to the effect that trump wants a human mission to mars to be completed within his presidency.. with that being said, the watchtower teaches that what started on earth ends on earth, in other words, the fall of adam and eve would end with the passing of the 1,000 year millennial reign when christ destroys all his enemies, rebellious "perfect" humans, and the devil and his demons who are let out the abyss for a short while.

he then hands the kingdom back to his father.

an elder in my old congregation once told us during a public talk that he was an ardent astronomer but then referenced the scripture where it says, "the earth he has given to the sons of men" (psalms 115:16).

David_Jay

TD,

Now that would definitely take this thread off in a different direction. That should be the subject of a different thread entirely.

Also, while I will comment on what the Jewish view is of a certain thread's subject in connection with JW theology, and some supplementary material might spring from that, my personal opinion is rarely given. Some people have thought I was giving my personal views, even on Judaism, but this isn't always the case. I often don't subscribe to what I've added. It's data that I think can help, and it's usually given in an objective manner. Usually.

On another thread I could tell you what Judaism views about a certain subject, but I wouldn't always include my personal opinion (sometimes because I have none). Rating various tenets of Christian Fundamentalist theology according to my personal isn't something I think would be of benefit to anyone. Who am I to do that?

61

Would human settlement of Mars invalidate Bible prophecy?

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't think this topic has been discussed before but yesterday i read something to the effect that trump wants a human mission to mars to be completed within his presidency.. with that being said, the watchtower teaches that what started on earth ends on earth, in other words, the fall of adam and eve would end with the passing of the 1,000 year millennial reign when christ destroys all his enemies, rebellious "perfect" humans, and the devil and his demons who are let out the abyss for a short while.

he then hands the kingdom back to his father.

an elder in my old congregation once told us during a public talk that he was an ardent astronomer but then referenced the scripture where it says, "the earth he has given to the sons of men" (psalms 115:16).

David_Jay

Half banana,

Remember the song...?

We're Jehovah's Witnesses./We speak out in fearlessness.
Ours is the God of true prophecy;/What he foretells comes to be.

The whole Mars thing would really screw up their theology.

I will say it once again: JWs have reduced the Bible to a crystal ball and made God into a fortune teller. This is why I laugh at them why they lie and say "we are not here in this religion based on the setting of any daste, whether we predicted one right or not." Uh, yes you are! Your theme song says so.

No wonder many of us upon leaving might still think the Bible claims to map out the future for the earth! It's all the Witnesses claim it to be. I have even heard brothers state that God won't allow space colonization until after Satan has been destroyed to ensure the "test upon humanity" plays out right.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

Can a Latter-day Saint have doubt and even wrestle with their religious concepts and doctrines as Jews as encouraged to? Or is doubt to be avoided?

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

James Mixon,

Judaism is the religious practice (or expression) of the Jewish people. Like Buddhism, Judaism does not require a Jew to believe in anything specific as a requisite to membership. There are also no concepts of salvation or eternal damnation.

Taoism, Jainism and Hinduism are similar, though Hindus may incorporate theist belief. This aspect of Hinduism is similar to Judaism as Jews could technically "believe" in God, but as "faith" is disregarded in exchange for "faithfulness," one might say this is still a response as the central definition of the Jewish God is that YHVH is unknowable or inconceivable.

As for an eternal metaphysical aspect of the human person, this is hard to say. In some respects all these above religions do, and yet technically they don't. For instance, Judaism recognizes that God has future plans after this world (universe) is gone, but it also includes the concept of God being totally alone at this point too. We are unconcerned about the afterlife, and many Jews do not even hold to such a concept. This is similar to Taoism in some respects.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

That is the problem with religions built upon and requiring assent of belief.

Not all religions are about believing something. Judaism and Buddhism are religions of practice. You can be atheist and be one or both (I have atheist friends who practice one or the other and know of some who practice both). Doubt and wrestling with central concepts are earmarks of Judaism, and there are forms of Jewish instruction regarding how and why to do this.

Not all religions have afterlife concepts, and therefore there are no reasons to worry they are wrong. Christianity seems to be peculiar in that it demands assent of mental belief in concepts that are supposed to be transcendent and defy reason. At the same time it often claims that doubt demonstrates unfaithfulness or even failure. Obedience and unquestioning are often requisites, and eternal punishment is always looming over the faithful just in case they think something incorrectly or fail in some way.

I have no reason to fear that my religion is wrong today, but Judaism also often teaches that it has no exclusive claim on truth anyway (or that there is necessarily a definitive truth in every matter). Thus I also don't go around thinking it is "right" either. It is what I do and how I respond to the universe, but it is just as much about being a Jew as it is about being in a covenant with the God of Abraham.

While I cannot speak for all Christians, the 11 years I did try it as a JW kept me in a state of constant worry and dread. I felt that my thoughts were not my own, that if I thought the wrong thing even for a split second that if I didn't immediately pray for forgiveness and repent that God would get me, especially should Armageddon begin before I could repent fully. Even though I had the "truth" as a Witness, I was in fear that I was believing hard enough or letting even a second of doubt in. It was always scary.

37

Circumcision....Perfect Adam....Uncircumcised....1st century Christians...circumcision ont required

by blondie in

jw
friends

i know this has been discussed many times, but i was watching a news story about female genital mutilation (not female circumcision) and segued mentally into why the hassle about male babies having to be circumcised, christians especially.

even the wts flipflops on this...... if adam, the first perfect man, not under the jewish law code, was given a foreskin by god as an aspect of his physical perfection, why then do so many "christian" people have their boy babies circumcised?.

if a health issue....why did god create the perfect man, adam, with a foreskin?.

David_Jay

First off, Judaism doesn't teach that Adam was perfect. It also doesn't teach that he lost his perfection. Neither situations occur at Eden in the narrative of Genesis according to Jewish exegesis.

Judaism does not teach that there was a fall from grace at Eden either and that death is a punishment for sin. These ideas and those of Original Sin being passed on from Adam are originally from Christianity. Death is actually seen by Jews as natural, and even as a type of reward of well-earned rest.--Genesis 15:15; 29:8; 49:29, etc.

Judaism acknowledges that circumcision did not exclusively originate with God and Abraham. It was the custom of the Semitic and Egyptian people that we descended from, and the narrative in Torah is likely linking an already-adopted practice of the Hebrews into its storytelling of the Abrahamic covenant.

Originally it was connected with marriage, performed as a rite of passage at the age of puberty, upon which the boy received a new name and, after healing, was considered purified for the marriage act.

Remnants of this practice are seen in the account of Moses' neglect to circumcise Gershom and Zipporah performing the rite in connection with a renaming ceremony.--Exodus 4:25-26.

The Jewish Encyclopedia adds:

The ancient Hebrews followed the more primitive custom of undergoing circumcision at the age of puberty, the circumcision of young warriors at that age signifying the consecration of their manhood to their task as men of the covenant battling against the uncircumcised inhabitants...After the settlement of the Israelites in Palestine, the rite was transferred to the eighth day after birth. In fixing the time of the initiatory rite at an age when its severity would be least felt, the Mosaic law shows its superiority over the older custom.

So it was not a health issue or even something originally ordained directly from God to the Jews. It was a rite we Jews inherited from our heathen days and later ascribed to our covenants with YHVH.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay