Posts by David

4

Redating the bible-Song of deborah (Shamgar)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

the hebrew language in biblical form did not exit until after 800 bce (likely 722).

the presents ex 15 and judges 5 as early but not contemporary.. well wake up... i'm a minimalist however i know the song of deborah fits somewhere.... like before omri.. (established as the first israelite ruler of israel..).

so where does that leave deborah or the song of the sea... both early hebrew but not canaanite.... the answer laid in shamngar...note:.

David_Jay

Jewish scholarship comes to a conclusion that is somewhat similar to yours.

While sages of the Second Temple era held the book to be a product of the prophet Samuel, today we Jews employ critical methodology that lends to a different view. The book appears to be a patchwork of folklore, legendary tales based likely on historical figures but with little of the history kept intact. Composed likely after the northern kingdom of Israel fell (the late 8th or 7th century B.C.E.), it has a very pro-Davidic stance. It may have originally been a composition or a collection of stories devised to promote the worship of YHVH when the Davidic dynasty adopted it as the state religion and enforced this requisite via a political initiative.

However what we have today has been assembled via heavy and complex redaction, and the later editors have left even less of the history than the original once did, focusing on the religious significance of the folktales instead of offering journalistic reports on a historical tableau.

The Song of Deborah does appear to be older than the rest of the work. It employs an archaic form of Hebrew, and our modern Jewish scholars suggest that the song existed before the narrative that is said to have inspired the song. It may be older even than the song of Exodus 15, used as a template by the Jews of the Babylonian diaspora to flesh out the narrative of the crossing of the Sea of Reeds.

The only real difference from your take is that we Jews hold to the view that YHVH was probably introduced via the Moabite tribes of Sinai instead of the Edomites.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

With that I am finished with speaking to someone who is proselytizing to me, Cold Steel.

One last thing however. LDS leadership has promised the Israeli government that it will never participate in proselytizing Jews in exchange for building the education center there. Mormon missionaries have told me they have been instructed not to discuss their religion with me or pass on their literature to me or read it to me as I am Israeli.

You have claimed that Mormons intend to break their promise with the government in Israel an eventually engage in proselytizing the Jews. Either your religion has lied to us or you are a bad example of a Mormon.

We are off track anyway. Sharing your religion with me even in this forum is proselytizing, and proselytizing Jews is insulting to me. You might as well paint a swastika on my door and write GO HOME JEW, because that is what it does to me when you keep on like you are doing. It is very hateful of you.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

Presenting new arguments and new information into this discussion is the tactic of JWs. It is called introducing a "red herring" into a conversation.

What you need to do is to back and read what you claimed and see how I responded.

For instance, you stated that certain doctrines like the one about baptism of the dead was foreign to Jews. I showed you how it was not.

You mentioned how Mormons are all for preserving Jewish culture, and then you used a Gentile attempt to pronounce HaShem, the Divine Name, an action that works to destroy our culture.

Instead of returning to these and other points I presented, you mention things that have nothing to do with Judaism, such as The Academy for Temple Studies.

You are distracting from the fact that you are wrong about what you claimed. This red herring approach is typical of cults.

When pressed you merely say that we have different opinions, but that is not true. You are merely repeating what your religion teaches you. Again, if you want to know about Mormonism you don't go to a Jew or a Catholic or a Baptist. You go to the source, to a Mormon. The same is true about Judaism and Jews. Why would someone believe a Mormon about Judaism over a Jew, over an Israeli Jew, of the tribe of Judah, or the House of David, like myself?

The truth is, no one here does. Go ahead. Ask everyone here what they think of your answers and what you're saying in comparison to mine. I speak three Jewish dialects, have citizenship in three different Jewish states, and have a trail of documents about my lineage that goes past beyond the Spanish Inquisition showing that my family lived in Jerusalem when the Temples stood. No one would believe you, a Gentile, over me, a Hebrew about Jews and Judaism.

27

"jesus never said the spiritual food would be perfect"

by nowwhat? in

oh so it's jesus fault the spiritual food hasn't been perfect!

we your governing body are just responsible for serving it!

think about this people, they are saying it was jesus who told us the end was going to come in 1975. then before the 1914 generation passed away no later than the 1990's.

David_Jay

Blondie, you should be the "faithful and discreet slave."

I feel your comments are inspired (not to sure where from, but inspired and inspiring nonetheless) and while who can be sure how "mistake-proof" any of us are, you serve some pretty darn good "food" at the proper time.

You could be the "faithful and discreet Blondie"! Even if you're not inspired or perfect, if the imperfect, uninspired Governing Body can bestow such a title upon themselves, why not you?

And if you ever do err (which of course is doubtful), we can just print: "Well, Jesus never promised a perfect Faithful and Discreet Blondie." Simple. ;)

68

What was it like being a JW in the 1960's and 1970's

by UnshackleTheChains in

this is obviously a question for the older generation.

i'm really curious what it was like to be a witness in the 60's and 70's?.

was the society as strict as it is today?.

David_Jay

I remember having friends in school who were JWs during the 1970s. They couldn't do so many things the rest of us kids could. They dressed like they were always at Sunday School instead of like other kids in jeans and tennis shoes. No faithful JW kid in elementary/primary school expected to go to high school as the end of the world was truly upon us.

The books studied were thick and focused mainly on how the experience of the anointed remnant was typified by the accounts in the Old Testament. "Proof" that it was the end was the fact that the anointed remnant was undergoing an antitype experience that was hidden in the Hebrew Scriptures and being unlocked now to be understood. Those with the earthly hope were happy bystanders to this, but they were the "faithful an discreet slave CLASS" among us. So all the studies generally focused in-depth on this type/antitype paradigm of the remnant that was the cornerstone of how "late" and "deep" we were in the end.

The magazines constantly published blurbs on how the world had to end in the mid-1970s. If God didn't bring Armageddon soon, the world would eat itself up before 1980. Destroying the world and slaughtering all the non-Witnesses was actually a loving and merciful act on God's part otherwise humanity wasn't going to survive.

Publications had illustrations that reminded me of Welch's Grape Jelly drinking glasses: line drawings with single-color splashes added here and there. We sold our books and magazines "at cost."

Someone in my area had black on white stickers and bumper stickers printed up and pasted them everywhere around town during 1974 and 1975 that read: "JEHOVAH is coming!"

27

"jesus never said the spiritual food would be perfect"

by nowwhat? in

oh so it's jesus fault the spiritual food hasn't been perfect!

we your governing body are just responsible for serving it!

think about this people, they are saying it was jesus who told us the end was going to come in 1975. then before the 1914 generation passed away no later than the 1990's.

David_Jay

It's funny (or not funny), because that Watchtower study basically read like an "apostate" wrote it: "The teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses are neither correct nor from God."

Now what's the difference between me or you having said that since we left and over the years and what the Watchtower just taught? "The teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses are not inspired nor to be considered perfect."

Since "inspired" means "God breathed" or spirit-directed from God, and saying that a teaching isn't "perfect" is another way of saying it isn't accurate or true, doesn't this just mean the Governing Body has admitted that they aren't directed by God and haven't been teaching "the Truth"?

It's not even a good enough cult to claim it's brain washing is the best anymore.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

I could go on, but Cold Steel is not my target, nor is Mormonism. It is to demonstrate that religions like the LDS are just like the JWs In claiming to know the accurate truth about things but actually proving to be unfamiliar with much of what they claim to understand.

In fact, one might also add to the OP that the real problem is that many religious people do NOT fear that they CAN be mistaken. Because of this they don't listen to evidence, prefer to engage in confirmation bias instead of listening to and learning from a direct source. They claim to know more about things than they really do, such as the various points Cold Steel claimed Mormons know about Judaism and Jews. Instead of having the courage to say they are wrong, they make excuses or just go silent and ignore the fact that their religion leaves them quite unprepared and uniformed.

Maybe some religious people need more fear to keep them humble and modest enough to keep themselves from claiming to know things they have never really studied directly from the source (or only read a few blurbs). Perhaps some are not afraid that they can become taken over and blinded by pride.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel also contradicted himself here:

The Jewish culture must not be lost under any circumstances, and what we deem as the old testament scriptures backs that up...
...shall suffer the judgments of Yahweh.

To utter and use the Name of God or use substitutes created by Gentiles (such as Jehovah and Yahweh) is one of the greatest means to attack and destroy the culture of Jews.

In Jewish culture, the holier something is, the less that thing gets used. Mundane names, like mine, may be used for humans and even other things. But the Name of God (YHVH) is a Self-Designation of the Divine. As such, Jewish culture and Law dictates that it must be handled the opposite way mundane names are used. Thus it is not uttered or written out, nor are Gentile substitutes like Yahweh used for it.

The use of the Name in this manner profanes it and goes against Jewish cultural and religious practice. So special the Name of God that some Jews even write G-d instead of "God" so as not to subject any name of God to possible misuse.

If Mormons really believed in preserving Jewish culture, they would not profane the Name of God in this manner.

Also the fact that Mormons "believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" is also an attack on Jewish culture.

Jews generally don't require the use of a translation of Scripture. While many Jews may not actually speak Hebrew, all of them know enough to read from it liturgically in its original Hebrew. Some know at least enough to pray and sing in Hebrew, and the majority don't have to rely on translations of any type at all.

That the Bible would have to be "translated" at all for it to be accepted as God's Word is anti-Jewish. To preserve a culture means preserving its language. Translations do not do this.

While I know that Mormons are not forbidden to study Hebrew, it is the statement that belief in the Bible as the Word of God is with the stipulation that it be "translated correctly."

25

Do you feel that you are really YOU?

by UnshackleTheChains in

i am interested in finding out how you view yourself.

are really you when it comes to every day interactions....ie when at work, with family or friends, or if attending meetings?.

if still attending, do you feel you are not the real you at meetings?

David_Jay

UnshackleTheChains,

I am grateful you realized I was not reducing your situation to something it is not. Family is worthy of the sacrifices you make, and I am sure yours definitely is.

But also remember that familial love works both ways. You have a right to have your family love you for your personal choices. You can make them realize how much they are hurting you and not being truly loving by not supporting you. It works both ways. Tread carefully, yes--and you are to be commended for this because it shows real love and courage on your part--but also remember that its a family. They owe you their familial love just as much.

Let's say if, like me, you learned you were actually Jewish. Since 2001, the governments of Portugal and Spain have begun to offer people citizenship for those whose ancestors were expelled during the Spanish Inquisition. Now millions of folks who thought they were Latino have discovered they are actually Semitic, and many have discovered they have been practicing Jewish customs unknowingly for generations. The nation of Israel estimates there are some 10,000,000 of these Jews out in the world who are just learning of their Jewish ancestry, and that government has begun a process to offer citizenship to all these too.

What if tomorrow you learned this was true of you? What if you wanted to not only learn more about your ancestors but accept citizenship in one of these countries (along with your current one)? What if you wanted to do more and make a formal return to Judaism? Would your family support you? Would you not tell them how much their love and support was necessary for you at this junction in your life and how disappointed you would be if they shunned you? As you learned of family you lost to the Inquisition and read names of relatives you lost in the Holocaust to them, perhaps even have pictures of some as I do, and you showed these to your family, wouldn't you deserve their full support regardless of their current beliefs? Wouldn't you give it you someone in your family who is a JW who suddenly learned this?

Well, you don't have to be a Jew to deserve such support. You can simply choose another religion. Maybe you want to be agnostic. Perhaps you feel more comfortable as an atheist. Is suddenly realizing you are a Jew somehow more important that realizing that you truly don't believe in God anymore and want to be atheist? Of course not! Whatever you are now deserves, no, demands as much love and support from family and friends.

However you do it, again you are brave for going through this for your family. You are the judge of how long you do it or if you decide to do it forever till something gives. But you also have to be true and honest for yourself too. Sometimes you have to point a mirror at someone when they frown at you because they don't realize how ugly a face they are showing you. Sometimes you can turn the tables around and show them what they are offering you to eat, that it is not good. If they can force you to go through the motions at a Kingdom Hall you can demand they go through the motions just as much when you light a menorah at Chanukah or raise a banner in the name of atheism or whatever it is you want to do.

Wives have to love their husbands if they suddenly become Jewish or atheist or whatever, and vice versa. And children can be punished for disrespecting the personal convictions and customs of their parents. It's not your job to only love them. It's their job to love you back too. They have to. If they are going to be in your family, they have no choice.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

There is a reason I mentioned "The Annotated Jewish New Testament" and those two documents from the Vatican. These are good starting points to answer all your questions.

I made links on these materials because I expect you to see the evidence for yourself. I knew you wouldn't believe me, so I wanted to make data that verifies my claims accessible.

Don't people avoid learning about Mormonism directly out of fear sometimes? It is easier to do this for some because people fear to be proven wrong. This is what is happening here.

1 Corinthians 15:29 is not foreign to Judaism. Baptism is based on the Jewish practice of "tevilah." Converts to Judaism would engage in tevilah by immersion ( the Greek word from which "baptism" comes from) in an immersion pool or tub called a "mikveh." The experience symbolized rising from death to a new life in Judaism.

But tevilah in a mikveh is also required by Torah if one comes into contact with a dead body. One "washes away death," so to speak, by means of this.

As "The Annotated Jewish New Testament" will tell you (if you would just read it), the Greek of 1 Corinthians 15:29 can actually be rendered "washing the dead" since "baptism" literally refers to this ritual wash. While likely a play off the words and practice of Jewish ritual washing, it is not phraseology unheard of to Jews.

Mikveh is actually performed before all Jewish burials. The dead body is washed or "baptized" via tevilah. This is a proxy tevilah as the ritual must be engaged in voluntarily when alive. Therefore when a dead body undergoes tevilah via mikveh it is done by proxy, by another who "washes the dead," or baptizes you in a mikveh since you cannot. So the Mormon belief is not "new" or foreign to Jews as you claim, just given a different meaning and practiced differently by LDS.

As for what Jews expect about the Messiah, why not hear from other Jews as well. Visit JewsforJudaism.org or Aish.org for starters. You may also want to visit your local synagogue and ask those in religious education there.

Anyone following this discussion between you and I can see you have great misconceptions about Judaism and have built upon these misconceptions to build your arguments.

I go back to the OP here because the only reason you wouldn't know precisely what Judaism teaches on these subjects is that your religion doesn't allow you to be exposed to information that isn't filtered. You don't check up on these things for youself. Why not? This is out of fear. For if you just learned for yourself or read up on these things you will see that you have no sturdy foundation to stand on for your arguments. So you just keep arguing back to me here instead of looking up these things for yourself or visiting your local synagogue. Use the links and web sites I have given you. Learn from the source. Why not? Are you afraid to be proven wrong? Would you be brave enough to accept that you are?

A lot of religious people hold on to their misinformation about the Jews out of fear. You would rather argue to support your misinformed views of Judaism than stop and learn for yourself. The OP is right. It's all fear.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay