Posts by David

19

Jehovah has Evil Spirit ?

by EverApostate in

last weekend i was watching darkmatter2525 on youtube and came across this new thing in the bible.

jehovah has evil spirit!!

was just wondering how i didn’t come across this absurdity when i was a jw for 11 years.

David_Jay

Correction, I WASN'T trying to defend the Bible or God.

19

Jehovah has Evil Spirit ?

by EverApostate in

last weekend i was watching darkmatter2525 on youtube and came across this new thing in the bible.

jehovah has evil spirit!!

was just wondering how i didn’t come across this absurdity when i was a jw for 11 years.

David_Jay

EverApostate,

Actually, being Jewish I don't have a need or desire to "paint" the Bible in a favorable light or "defend" how God is portrayed in Scripture.

Jews don't use the Bible as the basis for our religion. It is a product of our religion and culture, but it holds a very different place and use in Judaism than it does in Christianity.

My post was to point out that you wouldn't have this view to begin with if you weren't exposed to Watchtower teachings. Jews don't have it because we have different ideas about "evil" and the entire God concept by comparison.

The Scriptures are a very dated, ancient view of how Jews of the past understood the world around them. While it still plays a significant part in Judaism, we aren't locked to view it's static concepts as Fundamentalist Christians do.

And as for "defending" God, that demonstrates that the Marie Antoinette Effect might be playing a part here. Many practicing Jews are agnostic or even atheist. Even theist Jews will often claim that God acts unjust, unlovingly, unfair, and imperfectly in Scripture. We don't defend God. We wrestle with the concept, which is why were are called the children of "Israel." We don't accept God blindly as other religious people do.

Even the idea that the Scriptures are the "Word of God," as you put it, I am sure is based on your limited exposure to Christianity. The critical Jewish view, for instance, views Scripture as coming from humanity.

The "Marie Antoinette Effect" merely refers to dealing with things based on a limited scope. This is why even atheists who were never religious often refer to ex-JWs and ex-Mormons who become atheist as "narrow atheists." The term "narrow" means having a limited or narrow view upon which to come to their conclusion.

I actually support the atheist choice of many ex-JWs, and was merely referring to how exposure to the Watchtower religion can cause this effect. I was trying to defend the Bible.

19

Jehovah has Evil Spirit ?

by EverApostate in

last weekend i was watching darkmatter2525 on youtube and came across this new thing in the bible.

jehovah has evil spirit!!

was just wondering how i didn’t come across this absurdity when i was a jw for 11 years.

David_Jay

Since at present there is no way to correct the auto-correct feature left by my iPad on posts, the sentence in my last post:

"If there was no bread, why not just use came instead?"

...should read: "...why not just use CAKE instead?"

I have been fighting my iPad for 3 years now, and it keeps wanting to use the word "came" for "cake" (which can create very vulgar sentences when it sometimes insists on using the word "come" for "cake" too). Apparently the people at Apple know nothing of "CAKE." It almost always changes that word.

19

Jehovah has Evil Spirit ?

by EverApostate in

last weekend i was watching darkmatter2525 on youtube and came across this new thing in the bible.

jehovah has evil spirit!!

was just wondering how i didn’t come across this absurdity when i was a jw for 11 years.

David_Jay

EverApostate,

You are experiencing what I often call "The Marie Antoinette Effect."

As the legend goes, the last queen of France before the French Revolution was so far removed from the poverty and suffering of her subjects that when mothers begged the queen for help, saying: "Our children our dying from starvation. They have no bread to eat." Marie Antoinette replied: "Let them eat cake." In other words, the queen had never experienced a life where the term "bread" meant basic food. If there was no bread, why not just use came instead? the queen reasoned. Cake is like bread and could be used as a substitute, she thought. She couldn't relate to the actual meaning of the words "they have no bread to eat." She always had food available, and thus she misunderstood the real plight of her people.

When individuals leave cults like the Mormons and the JWs, some can tend to see all religion and the Sacred Scriptures based on their limited exposure to life in those cult religion. Like Marie Antoinette, the only way to see passages in the Bible are often read by such ex-members in the manner once taught in these cults even years after leaving their respective groups.

Now I am not recommending that you rejoin a religion. You are probably just fine as you are. However, the texts you mentioned have never been viewed the way the Jehovah's Witnesses teach by the Jews who wrote them. Most mainstream religions like Catholicism and Protstants like Lutherans, Methodists, and the like also hold to the Jewish view. It is quite different.

In Judaism there is no such thing as "Satan the Devil." There is no "Original Sin." Death is not a punishment. "God" is the central Origin and Cause of all in the universe. In ancient language among the Jews, God caused both good and evil, just as God created the Day as well as the Night. When something bad happened to someone, the "Universe" or God was the "cause" of the effect being mentioned.

The "bad" or "evil spirit" mentioned in these texts is a euphemism for a mental disorder. What is now called "clinical depression" or uni-polar disorder was referred to this way for generations among the Hebrews, even outside of the Bible. In very ancient Jewish theology all effects were blamed on the one central cause, namely God.

The idea that the God of Abraham cannot be blamed for "evil" is a Christian concept. Because God can "only produce good" in Christianity theology, and since Christians claim that evil "can only originate with Satan," you hear excuses that God was merely "allowing" evil to occur in such instances. The theological paradigm of most cult Christianity rejects the possibility of both good and bad coming from their particular concept of a "benevolent" God.

But the problem is not with the culture that produced the texts. The problem comes from a foreign culture that reinterpreted the texts along different lines. Being exposed only to these types of explanations has left you with the Marie Antoinette Effect, misunderstanding the terms of a people who have a different experience of life and a different meaning to the words they used to describe it.

While I still don't recommend that you suddenly change your current convictions because of this, I do hope it helps you to understand that the misunderstanding your are having is another reason the cult of the Watchtower needs to be avoided by all who find themselves attracted to it. It can give people only a very limited view on things that can stay with them even after they leave it behind.

6

Jehovah's Witnesses get support from .... the Catholic Church?

by EdenOne in

in this article on newsweek:.

http://www.newsweek.com/jehovahs-witnesses-ban-russia-catholic-593082.

catholics are concerned about their religion being discriminated as well in russia.

David_Jay

Actually the reason for this is because of a new doctrine developed in the Catholic Church since Vatican II: freedom of conscience.

According to this new theological concept, all human beings should be free to exercise their conscience as they see fit in all things religious, even when this means the freedom to reject religion.

The doctrine was developed partially due to the errors caused by the previous view. The previous doctrine (that all humans should not be free to choose religion outside the Church) contributed to the crimes of the Crusades, the Inquisition, and (though admittedly indirectly) contributed to the anti-Semitism that led to the Shoah. It also worked directly against the teachings of the canonized saints who were later recognized as doctors of the Church. Some of these were persecuted and even killed by the Church (i.e., St. Joan of Arc) when it turns out that their criticism of the Church was correct.

Therefore the Catholic Church now actively fights for freedom of religious and non-religious expression. Along with the JWs in Russia, the Catholic Church is working with several governments that are persecuting atheists, to find ways to stop the persecution. Pope Francis especially has been outspoken on not only assenting to this doctrine but practicing it and going one step further by forbidding proselytizing by any member of the Catholic Church. Under Francis, one may evangelize by example, but one may not proselytize to convince another that they are required to change and accept the Gospel.

4

Redating the bible-Song of deborah (Shamgar)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

the hebrew language in biblical form did not exit until after 800 bce (likely 722).

the presents ex 15 and judges 5 as early but not contemporary.. well wake up... i'm a minimalist however i know the song of deborah fits somewhere.... like before omri.. (established as the first israelite ruler of israel..).

so where does that leave deborah or the song of the sea... both early hebrew but not canaanite.... the answer laid in shamngar...note:.

David_Jay

Careful,

"We Jews" does not mean to imply anything more than that the data I am providing comes forth from Jewry.

Since Judaism is practiced, there are no requisites for belief or faith in a common creed. In fact, "we Jews" have a strong tendency to relish in our differences of opinion and approach. The fact that we are named after Jacob and not Abraham, the nation of "Israel," demonstrates that we are a people encouraged to "wrestle with God" and not settle on any particular answer or singular way.

Unlike some Christians and groups like the JWs and Mormons, uniformity is not something we strive for.

The information I provided covers the two main views, but there are a plethora in between that space does not permit me to include. Unlike some religions, Jews are often a little less concerned with knowing precisely the actual origins of the material and a bit more concerned on how to apply the material in practical ways in today's world. Again, this is because Judaism is not a religion of faith or belief but of doing and accomplishing.

4

Redating the bible-Song of deborah (Shamgar)

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

the hebrew language in biblical form did not exit until after 800 bce (likely 722).

the presents ex 15 and judges 5 as early but not contemporary.. well wake up... i'm a minimalist however i know the song of deborah fits somewhere.... like before omri.. (established as the first israelite ruler of israel..).

so where does that leave deborah or the song of the sea... both early hebrew but not canaanite.... the answer laid in shamngar...note:.

David_Jay

Jewish scholarship comes to a conclusion that is somewhat similar to yours.

While sages of the Second Temple era held the book to be a product of the prophet Samuel, today we Jews employ critical methodology that lends to a different view. The book appears to be a patchwork of folklore, legendary tales based likely on historical figures but with little of the history kept intact. Composed likely after the northern kingdom of Israel fell (the late 8th or 7th century B.C.E.), it has a very pro-Davidic stance. It may have originally been a composition or a collection of stories devised to promote the worship of YHVH when the Davidic dynasty adopted it as the state religion and enforced this requisite via a political initiative.

However what we have today has been assembled via heavy and complex redaction, and the later editors have left even less of the history than the original once did, focusing on the religious significance of the folktales instead of offering journalistic reports on a historical tableau.

The Song of Deborah does appear to be older than the rest of the work. It employs an archaic form of Hebrew, and our modern Jewish scholars suggest that the song existed before the narrative that is said to have inspired the song. It may be older even than the song of Exodus 15, used as a template by the Jews of the Babylonian diaspora to flesh out the narrative of the crossing of the Sea of Reeds.

The only real difference from your take is that we Jews hold to the view that YHVH was probably introduced via the Moabite tribes of Sinai instead of the Edomites.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

With that I am finished with speaking to someone who is proselytizing to me, Cold Steel.

One last thing however. LDS leadership has promised the Israeli government that it will never participate in proselytizing Jews in exchange for building the education center there. Mormon missionaries have told me they have been instructed not to discuss their religion with me or pass on their literature to me or read it to me as I am Israeli.

You have claimed that Mormons intend to break their promise with the government in Israel an eventually engage in proselytizing the Jews. Either your religion has lied to us or you are a bad example of a Mormon.

We are off track anyway. Sharing your religion with me even in this forum is proselytizing, and proselytizing Jews is insulting to me. You might as well paint a swastika on my door and write GO HOME JEW, because that is what it does to me when you keep on like you are doing. It is very hateful of you.

49

Do religious people fear that their religion may be wrong???

by James Mixon in

because there are so many religions in the world and it is obvious that no matter what the truth is, a large population of people will be wrong about it.

we at one time believe we had the truth and 99% of the world population were in darkness, but i wonder about folks in other religions today.

speaking with a christian friend about this and he told me," that's for god to decide, i hope i'am serving god"...the sad thing about all of this if one die and still believe in his religion, he will never know he was in the wrong religion.

David_Jay

Cold Steel,

Presenting new arguments and new information into this discussion is the tactic of JWs. It is called introducing a "red herring" into a conversation.

What you need to do is to back and read what you claimed and see how I responded.

For instance, you stated that certain doctrines like the one about baptism of the dead was foreign to Jews. I showed you how it was not.

You mentioned how Mormons are all for preserving Jewish culture, and then you used a Gentile attempt to pronounce HaShem, the Divine Name, an action that works to destroy our culture.

Instead of returning to these and other points I presented, you mention things that have nothing to do with Judaism, such as The Academy for Temple Studies.

You are distracting from the fact that you are wrong about what you claimed. This red herring approach is typical of cults.

When pressed you merely say that we have different opinions, but that is not true. You are merely repeating what your religion teaches you. Again, if you want to know about Mormonism you don't go to a Jew or a Catholic or a Baptist. You go to the source, to a Mormon. The same is true about Judaism and Jews. Why would someone believe a Mormon about Judaism over a Jew, over an Israeli Jew, of the tribe of Judah, or the House of David, like myself?

The truth is, no one here does. Go ahead. Ask everyone here what they think of your answers and what you're saying in comparison to mine. I speak three Jewish dialects, have citizenship in three different Jewish states, and have a trail of documents about my lineage that goes past beyond the Spanish Inquisition showing that my family lived in Jerusalem when the Temples stood. No one would believe you, a Gentile, over me, a Hebrew about Jews and Judaism.

27

"jesus never said the spiritual food would be perfect"

by nowwhat? in

oh so it's jesus fault the spiritual food hasn't been perfect!

we your governing body are just responsible for serving it!

think about this people, they are saying it was jesus who told us the end was going to come in 1975. then before the 1914 generation passed away no later than the 1990's.

David_Jay

Blondie, you should be the "faithful and discreet slave."

I feel your comments are inspired (not to sure where from, but inspired and inspiring nonetheless) and while who can be sure how "mistake-proof" any of us are, you serve some pretty darn good "food" at the proper time.

You could be the "faithful and discreet Blondie"! Even if you're not inspired or perfect, if the imperfect, uninspired Governing Body can bestow such a title upon themselves, why not you?

And if you ever do err (which of course is doubtful), we can just print: "Well, Jesus never promised a perfect Faithful and Discreet Blondie." Simple. ;)

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay