Posts by David

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

So god supposedly said, "I want you to prove your love for and devotion to me by cutting off the end of your dick. And just to be sure you're serious, cut off the end of your kids' dicks too!"
That's some seriously fucked up shit.
Religions are highly articulated expressions of mental illness.

Jews don't believe circumcision was a directive that came straight from God like Jehovah's Witnesses do or as you proposed in your comments.

Again, as I've already stated above, the Hebrew Bible is not meant to be a historically factual work. It is a liturgical collection.

Liturgy is something Jehovah's Witnesses don't have in their religion like most others do, so this leaves their adherents and even their ex-members somewhat ignorant and without a reference of what a liturgical works is.

Meant for public proclamation during formal worship to give religious explanation for cultural celebrations and customs, liturgy consists mostly of religious folklore. It gives a religious "explanation" for why a community does something.

But you're in good company if you think it's "fucked up shit." Let's see, there's the Spanish Inquisition judges and clergy, the murderous mobs of pogroms that would constantly attack us, the Nazis who murdered us in concentration camps--they all felt the same way about our practice and views on circumcision. So get in line.

There's been a whole lot of others here before you. They never lasted, they went down in infamy, and probably like you, they thought it would never happen to them because they felt they were in the right...probably like you do now.

48

Paradise? Was it?

by TerryWalstrom in

paradisewas it really paradise to be in paradise?adam and eve never were held by a mother, never cuddled and sung to with a lullaby nor nursed or coddled with tenderness or any human familial embrace.

the first humans (adam and eve) never learned to toddle surrounded by brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and grandparents cheering them on.

the entire experience of childhood was excised surgically like a trauma patient awakening from an accident with amnesia.adam and eve were never in a neighborhood with other kids forming friendship bonds for life and exchanging dreams and hopes for a future they were building in their community.

David_Jay

Fisherman,

I don't think that type of question toward the original poster is fair.

To begin with, the story of Adam and Eve as written by the Jews, my people, and as currently understood by us, is not, nor has it ever been understood or meant to be taken as historical. It was designed for a more primitive mindset using techniques we don't use today.

In a way, therefore, the question is very valid as this type of writing genre is very ancient and foreign. It does come from primitive minds, but that doesn't mean it is simple. It is quite complex. It is like a "fantasy" story in that it is teaching cultural truths using Hebrew folklore. So the question is not too far off base.

Jews are not called the Nation of Abraham. We are called the Nation of Israel. Why? Because Jacob, who was renamed Israel, was a man who experienced real intimacy with God only by asking the tough questions and wrestling with the real issues. To have a connection with God, questioning God, even wrestling with God like Israel did, is what it means to be very intimate with God. At least that is what it means to be in a covenant relationship with God to Jews.

If you don't questions, if you don't wrestle with God, if you don't say, "No, I will not let you go until you bless me and do what I ask of you," then all your lack of sitting there and just accepting stuff makes your religion static. Static religion is more ineffective than lack of religion. It's like worshiping idols. It's like saying: "Faith moves mountains." You pray, and then you sit and wait for God to do things for you. Jews are different. A Jewish proverb says: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you."

At least someone has the courage to ask questions. No one has a real intimate relationship with someone they don't ask real nitty gritty questions of. So if you're not asking questions like this poster did, you're the one who's never experienced any real intimacy with God.

48

Paradise? Was it?

by TerryWalstrom in

paradisewas it really paradise to be in paradise?adam and eve never were held by a mother, never cuddled and sung to with a lullaby nor nursed or coddled with tenderness or any human familial embrace.

the first humans (adam and eve) never learned to toddle surrounded by brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and grandparents cheering them on.

the entire experience of childhood was excised surgically like a trauma patient awakening from an accident with amnesia.adam and eve were never in a neighborhood with other kids forming friendship bonds for life and exchanging dreams and hopes for a future they were building in their community.

David_Jay

The etymology of the word "paradise" had to do with botany and estate owned by royalty. The word is Indo-European in origin, and referred to gardens that were closed off away from others that only the powerful could enjoy with their guests. They were often idyllic places on the inside, guarded by soldiers with deadly weapons at the gates to keep the common folk out. There was often a stark contrast between what it looked like inside compared with outside of the gate or wall enclosing the "park."

The word was adapted into the Greek language where it eventually became employed by Christians to describe both Eden and Heaven. This was the root of how it got adopted by Jehovah's Witnesses to stand for their theology of a "perfect world" (i.e., "You can live forever in paradise on earth...").

Technically speaking, Adam and Eve were in a "paradise" as the word only originally meant an "enclosed park." The word comes with no implication on the treatment of guests within the enclosure.

The details that Terry are raising are interesting but are still the Watchtower's theology details. The original word "paradise" is absent of all of these. All those added details are foolery of the Watchtower, "definitions" they added to the word "paradise" which have nothing to do with the original word (which, by the way does not actually occur in the Hebrew text).

Footnote: The English word "paradise" has also come to mean "idyllic state," but this is a newer meaning influenced by the Christian meaning added since the development of Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity. The original etyomology from Avestan to Greek had no such Christian connotations.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

Pete wrote:

So in the new system, will everyone's foreskin grow back??? Will Abraham and all his contemporaries be resurrected Circumcised or intact? Inquiring minds want to know.

The "new system" is a Jehovah's Witness fabrication. At least for Jews, there is no such thing. This present life may be all there is.

The Jewish sages and prophets did speak of what later Jewish teachers have come to call "Olam Ha Ba," the World to Come or "Afterlife." Whether or not this is literally true or to be expected we will have to see, therefore Jews do not live their present lives in expectation of it or center their hope and daily focus upon it.

Some Jews, therefore, see the idea of the resurrection as something that happens in the present life and not in Olam Ha Ba. For instance, when one changes their pattern of life from a set of unhealthy, self-centered, selfish living to one more healthy, giving, and healing, one can be said to be experiencing a "resurrection" to true life as God intends for us. For many Jews the idea of a physical resurrection is naive, childish, but for others some expect it in some form or another for the dead when the Messiah comes.

But details like what happens to circumcision marks are considered trivial. Since Jews have no definitive evidence regarding the nature of Olam Ha Ba, it does little good to speculate about exactly what it will be like for humans. How can one give an answer? Where does one get the information from? It has not been provided to Israel or to our prophets and teachers, therefore there is no answer to give, at least from the Jewish perspective.

Anyone else who gives an answer obviously claims to have tapped into the Divine. Thus make sure of their credentials before you accept what they offer you.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

Crazyguy,

In addition:

Hercules was not set as a Greek hero as we know him today until the Greek Classical period (after the Babylonian exile), but the Jews wrote the story of David and Goliath during the exile based on folklore stories from the Davidic dynasty era predating Nebuchadnezzar. It is likely Goliath was based on Mesopotamian giant stories, like those feared by the Canaanites and early Hebrews.

Greek Hoplite soldiers existed in the 7th century BCE, perfecting their famous shield armour somewhere around the 5th century BCE. The folklore of David goes back to 1000 BCE and the liturgy was written in Babylonia around 530. While it may have been possible for an exile from the Archaic Greek world to share the design of the shield with someone who wrote the Scripture story, there isn't empirical evidence to support this hypothesis. It seems that the Jews and Greeks knew virtually nothing of one another until the Babylonian exile ended, the Hebrews being so insignificant as we were then.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

Crazyguy,

While everyone is entitled to their views, and indeed, some of the later interpolations of Ezra and Daniel, and writings that did not make into the Tanakh (such as Tobit) show Greek influence, the Hebrew Bible as a whole is a product of the pre-Hellenistic era.

The Tanakh was compiled during the Babylonian exile, in the 500s BCE, when the Jews were cutoff from the world. This was during the end of the era of Archaic Greek society, and the Jews would not encounter the Greeks until the exile ended and the Classical Greek world began.

The Jews would first make contact with Hellenism just prior to the Hasmonean revolt at the end of the 3rd century,3-4 hundred years after the Hebrew Scriptures had been written. The introduction of Chanukah into the Jewish calendar in the 2nd century BCE, marks how late (and originally destructive) this first encounter was.

When Egypt fell to Greece, Hellenistic Jews moved to Alexandria. The Septuagint was the result, but the experiment did not last long. The Septuagint was eventually rejected by Judaism because of this Greek influence upon the text, even though even in the Septuagint it was somewhat minor. To this day Jews regard the Septuagint as a faulty and untrustworthy translation. None of the Greek additions in the Septuagint occur in the accepted Jewish text of the Tanakh. Only the Catholic and Greek Orthodox Church accept these Greek additions as canonical.

36

2017 Memorial Partakers

by NashvilleTele in

when does the number of memorial partakers get released for 2017. i was wondering if the number will surpass 20k.

David_Jay

From my experience back during the 1970s to 1990, the largest number and any increase of anointed has always been in and come from the United States.

The largest number of the "remnant" was associated with Russell in the U.S. in the 1800s. The same was true during the time of Rutherford. From what I remember from reports and discussions with anointed elders during my time, America was still where "Jehovah" had the largest number of anointed.

My educated guess is that the increase today is no different. The idea that recent "third world country converts" are responsible for the increase is unfounded, without backup data, and likely based on cultural and perhaps even racial prejudice that the Watchtower takes advantage of.

There is more a feeling of entitlement in the American culture than in other parts of Western society, not to mention other parts of the world. This would account for increasing to remain popular and steady in the U.S. Since there is no new specific data to go on at present and all we have is the past data to rely on, there is no reason to assume that the American trend has somehow suddenly or will ever change, especially since the culture definitely has not.

While this is just my hypothetical take, I would bet good money that the increase in Memorial Partakers is still in the U.S., and perhaps even among younger white men in positions of privilege of whom the current members of the Governing Body might even find threatening. This would account for the reason of stating these "new" partakers may have "mental issues," for they will surely outlive them and be forced to revise, correct, and even dismiss the current Governing Body's doctrines as foolishness. To avoid others from listening to any of them now, the Governing Body is painting these younger men today as deranged. That is what I would say is really happening.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

But what about Deuteronomy 14:1 and Philippians 3:2? How do Jews account for these two texts in the practice of circumcision?

Deuteronomy 14:1 states that the Israelites were not to "gash" themselves or "shave" their heads to "mourn" the dead. This was because such practices were part of heathen rituals associated with the worship of ancestors as practiced by neighboring nations.

Jews, male and female, have pierced their ears and noses to hang jewelry since antiquity, for example. Other texts required the shaving of the head such as for cleansing after being exposed to skin diseases. So this text in Deuteronomy cannot be used to argue that the flesh cannot be cut for circumcision. It is only speaking about mourning the dead.

As for the text in the New Testament, that is a Christian text that Jews have never accepted on the basis that Jews do not see Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. It was written in the first century C.E., thousands of years after Jews had adopted circumcision, and is therefore irrelevant to Jewish instruction.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

Half banana,

Unlike the stupid stories Jehovah's Witnesses sold as snake oil but claimed were divine, we Jews are not uncomfortable saying the following: "Some of our customs we attribute to God in the Bible are actually pagan."

That's kind of the reason why during the Babylonian exile the priests and scribes changed our historical narrative with a colorful liturgical folklore overlay of religious mythology when composing Bible stories. While this doesn't mean there might not have been some providence behind the events of Jewish history, seeing God's hand in things was more hindsight than anything.

What Witnesses see as a divine history in the Bible is actually a liturgical folklore, like American tales about George Washing chopping down a cheery tree in his youth, the midnight ride of Paul Revere, Johnny Appleseed planting American foliage, and Betsy Ross inventing the first American flag. None of this is fact, but these stories contain cherished truths among Americans. The Bible of the Jews was meant to be the same.

Circumcision may not have had heavenly origins. It may be more barbaric in its invention. Yet the Jews saw a providence in it once in Babylon on how it got woven into the Hebrew culture, and it along with many other practices was kept as a means to preserve our cultural identity. Instead of assimilation (as was the fate of most tiny cultures absorbed by Babylon), giving our cultural practices like circumcision a religious meaning through liturgy (that is the Scriptures) preserved us. Babylon, the mighty nation is no more yet we are still here.

Today some male converts to Judaism are not required to undergo circumcision in some circumstances. There are discussions among teachers about this practice. While I don't see it going away entirely, if at all, don't imagine for one minute that Jews are anything like Jehovah's Witnesses and blindly base their practices on the Bible.

If anything, it has always been the other way around.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

There is no text in the Hebrew Bible that reads or states anything along the lines of circumcision being "a sign" to set Jews apart from Gentiles. Neither does Judaism or any Jew like myself teach that it was supposed to "set us apart" in such a manner.

Circumcision was a common practice of the Mesopotamian world from which the descendants of Abraham sprang. It was practiced for generations long before Abraham was born, centuries before there was a Jewish people. The rite was usually practiced upon males coming of age before going to battle or before taking a wife. It was merely received by Abraham from his culture and passed down to the Jewish world, likely without any of the ceremony mentioned in the Torah.

After the Babylonian deportation, the Jews assigned this custom a religious meaning in their liturgy by means of the Biblical texts. This religious interpretation was new, but not historical by any means.

It was not however a "sign to set them apart" from Gentiles, many of whom also practiced it. As the Genesis narrative makes clear at Genesis chapter 17:11, "it is a sign of the covenant" between God and Abraham, not a sign to differentiate between the Jews and the nations.

The Jews have been well aware since antiquity that the historicity of this sign is only symbolic in Scripture however. The same goes for much of what is written in Torah (such as our celebration of Sukkot or the Festival of Booths, which is currently going on; it did not originate during the time of the Exodus as the Bible narrative says, but comes from Mesopotamian harvest festivals in which harvesters dwelt in booths during the final days of ingathering).

Some Christians, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as others have obviously added a literal interpretation to the texts of the Jews as well as misquoted details that don't even occur at all in Jewish Scripture. There is nothing anywhere in the Bible, Jewish texts, etc., that state that God gave circumcision as a sign to Jews to set them apart from the Gentiles, neither is this a part of our Jewish theology.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay