Posts by David

25

Jehovah is Satan

by VW.org in

i found a very convincing youtube video showing that jehovah of the old testament is satan and the god of the new testament is god the father.. https://youtu.be/-eyp4n0xkxk.

David_Jay

The problem with this hypothesis is that Satan the Devil is a product of Christianity. Judaism hasn't any concept of such a being. We don't believe in a Devil of any type.

Second, the idea that God is attempting to "make a name" for God is a misunderstanding in Christianity. The idiomatic expression refers to the redemption of all peoples who will learn of God when God will release them from their misery, as God made a name among the Israelites when releasing them from slavery during the Exodus. It's not about advantage for God, but future advantage for humanity.

Lastly, neither "Jehovah" or "Yahweh" are accurate or accepted pronunciations of the Divine Name. They were created by Christians. In the early 21st century, the creators of the Jerusalem Bible, recognizing their error, decided to ban it from their upcoming revision of the Jerusalem Bible, "The Bible in It's Traditions," and the Roman Catholic Church, recognizing that these names were no longer suitable, banned their use in public liturgy out of respect for Jewish sensitivity and to remain scholarly accurate in their translation efforts.

There is more that a critical analysis of these videos would find unacceptable, but for now that should be enough. Remember, you cannot claim to be a critical thinker and so quickly accept what you hear and see. Critical thinkers TEST what they hear and see. If you are likely to be biased because you think you might favor the material, then you must seek disinterested parties to examine the material as you would in the scientific method.

The God of the Jewish Bible cannot be Satan, a product of Christianity. That would require that the Jewish text was written after Christianity was founded. If that were so, how were the Dead Sea Scrolls hidden away and later found?

The above argument is not possible.

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

David_Jay

Also, the NWT has a Hebrew edition of the New Testament, first published in S e l t e r s / T a u n u s (Germany) in 2012. They are presumably working on the Old Testament counterpart.

That last part: "They are...working on the Old Testament counterpart."

That is the most illogical, not to mention, money-wasting project I've ever heard of.

How long have they been translating the Hebrew Scriptures into...Hebrew?

How many years does it take for Jehovah's Witnesses to translate the Bible into a language that it already exists in and that is already accessible to Hebrew readers and speakers? Why would they spend money and years and effort to do it?

How long does it take to translate a language into itself?

I live in America, but do you know how much Hebrew I speak every day? Tons! Every single day! So do most Jews, in every country. We don't need a translation. We understand our own language.

But, you're telling me that the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, under the direction of the Governing Body, under the direction of Jesus from Heaven, taking direction from Jehovah, has been having translators translate the Hebrew Scriptures from Hebrew into Hebrew so there can be a New World Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Hebrew Scriptures for Hebrew people whose first language is already Hebrew and, like most Jews, spent years in Hebrew school learning Biblical Hebrew?

Really?

That's like saying I will now translate this post from English into English so you can read a translation of English from English since you read English because the original is in English.

Huh?

Either you are not a reliable source and this is not happening, or you are reliable and the NWT translators are complete morons and wasteful.

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

David_Jay

Wonderment,

I have no hate towards the Watchtower as much as for its teaching and for people who are cruel in their ways and speech.

As mentioned, I acknowledged the modern Greek version of the NWT.

I also mentioned there was no NWT version of the Tanakh in Biblical Hebrew.

Jews don't need a translation of the Tanakh into Biblical Hebrew. We already read, pray, speak, write, sing, and have Bibles in Biblical Hebrew. Jews have no use for an NWT Tanakh.

I also don't require a translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures. I read, write, pray, etc. in Koine Greek. So I do not require the use of the NWT or any translation.

I gather you are not a supporter of the NWT, Jehovah God or the Christian Congregation by your uncomely "panties" comment that one never hears from one who never lets unclean comments come from their mouths. Jehovah's Witnesses and their supporters would never say such things, nor visit a site such as this.

10

A day for a lunar or solar etc year

by stillajwexelder in

about 10 years ago there was a brilliant piece by a legend on this board - may have been farkel.

it was where he showed how ludicrous it was to flit between solar days lunar months a solar day for a 360 day year but those years are 365 to come up with 1914. i have tried searching but struggled.

does anyone remember it and if so can you point to it with a link please?

David_Jay

I've read the link.

The problem with that information is that the leap years were not added at set intervals as much as we Jews would have liked, and the Babylonian exile and Roman Diaspora upset our time keeping over the years. During the Middle Ages we had to reset things.

Since then we've employed a standardized 19-year cycle that adds a month every two or three years up to seven times in this cycle to keep the seasons in balance. This actually makes the Hebrew year a few minutes longer than the solar year, causing a leap forward/fall-back effect over the centuries. The years are therefore not always average.

However the "mean Biblical prophetic year" is a Christian invention, unknown to Judaism and the Jewish prophets. So the 38 years mentioned may be as much of an invention as the "mean" year. There is no such thing as a Biblical prophetic year, only literal lunar years.

10

A day for a lunar or solar etc year

by stillajwexelder in

about 10 years ago there was a brilliant piece by a legend on this board - may have been farkel.

it was where he showed how ludicrous it was to flit between solar days lunar months a solar day for a 360 day year but those years are 365 to come up with 1914. i have tried searching but struggled.

does anyone remember it and if so can you point to it with a link please?

David_Jay

I hope someone finds the link for you.

I am Jewish, and I know the 1914 "day-for-a-year" doesn't work simply because we Jews use a lunar calendar.

We are in the High Holy Day Season. We just celebrated the new year, Rosh Hashanah, a few days ago: 5778. We are celebrating Sukkot, the Festival of Booths, about to end that, and it is Hoshana Rabba, the 21st of the month of Tishri tonight.

These are all LUNAR dates. The Watchtower devised 1914 by the Christian Gregorian SOLAR calendar.

If you count a day for a year, Biblically speaking, you would have to subtract around roughly 19 years from 1914. I say "roughly" because the Jewish leap years have been determined differently over the 2,520 years the Witnesses count to arrive at 1914.

Sometimes these years were decided by council, sometimes they were not added at all, sometimes they were added much later in time to catch up with the seasons, and then they were standardized. Not only are we talking 2,501 solar years instead of 2,520 years, we are talking a few months and days which might make us closer to 2,500 to be more accurate.

That means we are talking 1894 or 1895, not 1914 in Biblical lunar years if you want to use the Watchtower formula. Some have calculated in the other direction, meaning 1934.

Even if you account for a better system you are always off by at least three months in either direction, putting you in either November 1913 or February 1915 but never, ever October 1914. But that would be pushing it.

48

Paradise? Was it?

by TerryWalstrom in

paradisewas it really paradise to be in paradise?adam and eve never were held by a mother, never cuddled and sung to with a lullaby nor nursed or coddled with tenderness or any human familial embrace.

the first humans (adam and eve) never learned to toddle surrounded by brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and grandparents cheering them on.

the entire experience of childhood was excised surgically like a trauma patient awakening from an accident with amnesia.adam and eve were never in a neighborhood with other kids forming friendship bonds for life and exchanging dreams and hopes for a future they were building in their community.

David_Jay

deegee:

Not exactly.

Terry explains he was "just" talking to himself.

The idea of prayer to Jews, Catholics and Orthodox is that prayer is a dialogue. We listen to God, but we also talk to God. Both things are happening.

Terry explains a concept of God that he learned in Watchtowerland that led him to a conclusion about God that made him believe that God doesn't listen, and that prayers are ineffective. It wasn't Terry's fault that he came to this conclusion. It was the Watchtower's fault. They designed Jehovah to be this weird Santa-Claus-ask-and-receive god.

I recall the words of Romans 8:26 where Paul refers to the Jewish concept of prayer, stating that "the Spirit itself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." This is because the Jews and early Christians recited the Psalms as prayers three times a day and a fouth before retiring at night. They used an assigned cycle to cover all 150 over a quick period of time and restart again, and had a selected library for needs like mourning, personal requests, sickness, intercessions, thanksgiving, etc. Rarely was a prayer spontaneous. Some prayers came from Torah, like the Shema, and even the Prophets.

Paul, at Romans, was saying that these words were the Spirit of God saying the words that God wanted us to say yet which were too great for us mortals to come up with. So we could learn from reciting them and didn't need to worry that God didn't listen when we used certain ones to ask for help or requests.

So no, we are not speaking of the same things.

And I am not saying it is anyone's fault they were taught Watchtower lies. I was taught them too when I was a boy. And some stuck with me for a while.

It's not our fault when we accidently keep using them to apply to everything outside the Watchtower that is religious either. But believe me when I say, this is not the way it is elsewhere. This is not the way Jews, for instance, have viewed or prayed to the God of Abraham. God is not like a fairy that grants wishes.

48

Paradise? Was it?

by TerryWalstrom in

paradisewas it really paradise to be in paradise?adam and eve never were held by a mother, never cuddled and sung to with a lullaby nor nursed or coddled with tenderness or any human familial embrace.

the first humans (adam and eve) never learned to toddle surrounded by brothers, sisters, aunts and uncles and grandparents cheering them on.

the entire experience of childhood was excised surgically like a trauma patient awakening from an accident with amnesia.adam and eve were never in a neighborhood with other kids forming friendship bonds for life and exchanging dreams and hopes for a future they were building in their community.

David_Jay

So God helps the blind man but he didn't help Terry? Why?

Again, realize you are describing a concept of God that is Watchtower-based (and Christian-based, for that matter).

The paradigm of God in this concept is that "God" is someone you are supposed to ask things of and expect this of, to "believe" in, and that prayers are supposed to be heard by God and not be said to be things heard by ourselves.

These are very opposite of Jewish concepts, and some of them even shared among Catholics, and the Orthodox. For these prayers are pre-composed, inspired by God in the Psalms, and recited, rarely spontaneous. In them, the person hears God speak to them. The prayer is often actually to themselves! Occasionally they ask for their own needs, but mostly they praise God in this inspired liturgy. It's not about asking for God to do this or that for them. It's about thanking God for this and that, and asking God what more they can do for God. A Jewish proverb states: "Pray as if everything depends on God, but act as if everything depends on you."

The prayer of Jehovah's Witnesses is not composed of inspired words from the Bible. Instead people must come up with their own words, spontanously and extemporaneously, unlike the way the Jews and original Christians did. Witnesses ask God for things and expect God to give them things in return. They are taught to believe hard in God and not let doubt drown out their faith or else their prayer might be ineffective. Reciting prayers is forbidden.

Because they have been taught no other way, nor have they been exposed to other religious paradigms or traditions, even some ex-Jehovah's Witnesses expect that all other religions are based on a "faith/pray=ask" system. Since the Watchtower mocked and taught that recitation of prayers was bad, not explaining that the recitation was from the Psalms (the Jews, Catholics, and Orthodox use the Psalms as their official prayer and song book, have been doing so for thousands of years--compare that to the official song book of the Witnesses and who is making up the prayers offered at JW meetings), it is a wonder whose prayers and prayer system is actually more authoritative and makes more sense.

Therefore it is not that 'God is fickle on who God helps or ignores.' It is Witnesses and some ex-Witnesses who are still clinging to Watchtower indoctrination that still applies a paradigm of "God" being a type of "Santa Claus" system who only rewards who God wants and is stingy with others. We then blame God for not fitting our view when we forget that we might be holding on to a view that was given us from a cult to begin with.

It is far better that we strive to find practical ways to serve our neighbor, find what their real needs are and meet them than merely point people to prayer. All the talk about God in the world is useless compared to real action. There is no help in talking God when someone is left without what they truly need. Do something. God is the action you do, not in the belief or faith you have. Faith does not move mountains. Pushing moutains moves them.

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

David_Jay

You're welcome, shepherdless.

One might wish to ask a Witness why there is no NWT Tanakh in Hebrew. That would be superfluous, even though there is a significant difference between modern and Biblical Hebrew.

Jews pray and worship in Biblical Hebrew, as well as read Scripture in Biblical Hebrew. A "modern" Hebrew Bible created by the Watchtower Society would never be correct, never be accurate, and be totally unnecessary. Jews swing between the two, and sometimes between them and Aramaic, Yiddish, Ladino, English and even another native language smoothly. Watchtower translation attempts and tools are clumsy and naive by comparison.

The same can be said for their modern Greek attempts.

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

David_Jay

The Septuagint is in a form of Greek known as "Septuagint Greek," between Attic and Koine.

The New Testament was written in Koine, except for the first two chapters of Luke after the first verse of two, which appear to most scholars to purposefully mimic Septuagint Greek.

Except for Hebrews (and the works of Luke) the Koine Greek of the New Testament can be difficult to read. The Pauline epistles are sloppy and Johannine works are repetitive, though one can find a beauty out of the Johannine works. Hebrews is excellent, and Luke writes very well, albeit like a skilled fictional writer more than an historian (for instance his claim that Jesus ascended on Easter Sunday at the end of his gospel but then his beautiful reinterpretation of it as a forty-day later event that takes place from the Mount of Olives in a Moses-like event as a prologue to Acts as one of many irreconcilable examples). Matthew may have once been a translation from Aramaic, but there is little evidence of this in its present form.

The Greek of both the Septuagint and the New Testament do not match, neither are they modern Greek. There is no need for a modern Greek NWT for the general Greek public that grows up going to Greek school learn ancient forms of Greek in order to follow along with Greek liturgy (written in Koine) in churches. The Watchtower wastes their time making things like this because they are ignorant of Liturgy and the importance of it in religions.

36

"Circumcision is a sign to set you apart from the people of the nations"

by stuckinarut2 in

we know that the hebrew scriptures, or old testament states that the practice of circumcision (of males) was supposed to be yet another sign that set the jews apart from the "people of the nations".

but apart from so many odd things, how dumb is this?.

i mean, how did someone know if a male was circumcised or not??

David_Jay

So god supposedly said, "I want you to prove your love for and devotion to me by cutting off the end of your dick. And just to be sure you're serious, cut off the end of your kids' dicks too!"
That's some seriously fucked up shit.
Religions are highly articulated expressions of mental illness.

Jews don't believe circumcision was a directive that came straight from God like Jehovah's Witnesses do or as you proposed in your comments.

Again, as I've already stated above, the Hebrew Bible is not meant to be a historically factual work. It is a liturgical collection.

Liturgy is something Jehovah's Witnesses don't have in their religion like most others do, so this leaves their adherents and even their ex-members somewhat ignorant and without a reference of what a liturgical works is.

Meant for public proclamation during formal worship to give religious explanation for cultural celebrations and customs, liturgy consists mostly of religious folklore. It gives a religious "explanation" for why a community does something.

But you're in good company if you think it's "fucked up shit." Let's see, there's the Spanish Inquisition judges and clergy, the murderous mobs of pogroms that would constantly attack us, the Nazis who murdered us in concentration camps--they all felt the same way about our practice and views on circumcision. So get in line.

There's been a whole lot of others here before you. They never lasted, they went down in infamy, and probably like you, they thought it would never happen to them because they felt they were in the right...probably like you do now.

David_Jay

Posts by David_Jay