Posts by redpilltwice

5

Some elders tactics during my fading (appeal to emotion and circular reasoning)

by redpilltwice in

first of all, hats off and thank you to all the wonderful and intelligent people i've met and observed on this incredible forum.

it's about time to share some more experiences regarding my recent fading, which began end september.

not very spectacular i think, but reckonizable maybe.

redpilltwice

Thank you Phizzy and Flipper. It's so sad to see they are not able to break through that WT fence. Maybe one day, some words and memories of these kind of debates will become seeds of TTATT.

22

Daily Mirror article about JWs destroying evidence

by Tornintwo in

i can't see another thread but maybe i missed it:.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/jehovahs-witnesses-paedophile-sex-abuse-7278824#comments-section.

Thanks for sharing this Tornintwo. The page loaded, no problem in my case. It's good the media pays attention to this "memo telling them [elders] to get rid of notes taken during “judicial meetings” with alleged sex offenders.". It truly was a disgusting thing to do!

5

Some elders tactics during my fading (appeal to emotion and circular reasoning)

by redpilltwice in

first of all, hats off and thank you to all the wonderful and intelligent people i've met and observed on this incredible forum.

it's about time to share some more experiences regarding my recent fading, which began end september.

not very spectacular i think, but reckonizable maybe.

redpilltwice

First of all, hats off and thank you to all the wonderful and intelligent people I've met and observed on this incredible forum. It's about time to share some more experiences regarding my recent fading, which began end september. Not very spectacular I think, but reckonizable maybe. I must say, my fading went extremely well so far. As I wrote earlier, I dropped the A-bomb during CO's last visit by writing a letter that put forward my doubts regarding 1914 and the handling of sexual abuse. The content could have been enough to send a JC after me, but I played the game well. During my fading, I only had a few concerned brothers at my door now and then (no problem) and only two meetings with a few elders that wanted to know about my family conditions and personal doubts. When discussing doctrine, it was a draw twice. They simply clung to the old, dusty WT literature and guidelines and I carefully tried to reason out-of-the-box, not revealing my sources, such as jw.facts, ad 1914 etc.

One of the elders tried to make an appeal to emotion twice, looking at me with melancholy eyes and reminding me of my visit to an international convention in the USA back in 1998, where I took some photographs with some GB members personally (John Barr and his wife and Daniel Sydlic). The elder knew how this always has been one of my personal highlights in the Borg and that the impact got me to become a regular pioneer soon after. Nevertheless his tactics didn't work, just as they didn't work regarding WTdoctrine. I always felt this was a conscious attempt to unbalance me, but I also felt I always was one step further in this psychological game. It also showed that, during this stage of our discussion, they must have felt that I wasn't going to give up my new insights!

Another example, also known as circular reasoning (a classic example is: the bible is the word of god because the bible says it is the word of god).

I brought to their attention that the WT's own literature gives room to the idea that 70 years of Babylonian domination does not necessarily imply literally 70 years of Jewish exile. To reinforce my argument I let them read the following section:

*** ip-1 chap. 19 p. 253 Jehovah Profanes the Pride of Tyre ***

“She Must Return to Her Hire”

21 Isaiah goes on to prophesy: “It must occur in that day that Tyre must be forgotten seventy years, the same as the days of one king.” (Isaiah 23:15a) Following the destruction of the mainland city by the Babylonians, the island-city of Tyre will “be forgotten.” True to the prophecy, for the duration of “one king”—the Babylonian Empire—the island-city of Tyre will not be an important financial power. Jehovah, through Jeremiah, includes Tyre among the nations that will be singled out to drink the wine of His rage. He says: “These nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.” (Jeremiah 25:8-17, 22, 27) True, the island-city of Tyre is not subject to Babylon for a full 70 years, since the Babylonian Empire falls in 539 B.C.E. Evidently, the 70 years represents the period of Babylonia’s greatest domination—when the Babylonian royal dynasty boasts of having lifted its throne even above “the stars of God.” (Isaiah 14:13) Different nations come under that domination at different times. But at the end of 70 years, that domination will crumble. What will then happen to Tyre?

I found this on jw.facts, but of course I didn't tell them, because it was straight from our own literature. So I asked the elder: Why can't this same interpretation be applied to Israel's exile, in order to honestly take in account the evidence against 607 BCE?

His answer was..."Well, you know, 1914, right?

I couldn't believe my ears! In order to get to the right interpretation, the desired WT answer became the evidence itself, no matter how strong the case for a better, more truth based answer may have been!

At this point, I even was more convinced I had chosen the right path by taking the red pill again (yes, the Matrix analogy). The first red pill (my bible study period during the 90's that got me out of the assumed Babylon the Great), didn't turn out to be a real one, but hey, there truly is good news...I'm not alone! The number of deserters is growing by the day, what an exciting time!

37

Stepping out of the shadows

by contramundum in

i have been lurking on the site for a few months and thought it about time i plucked up the courage to step out of the shadows and say hello.. i am in the process of fading after realizing all is not right with the organization i had trusted implicitly for over 40 years.

there have always been 'truths' i have struggled to accept entirely, even as a child, but was confident that trusting in jehovah, building my faith and remaining patient would be enough to settle any nagging doubts that remained, so i pushed any inconsistencies to the back of my mind and concentrated on being the best witness that i could be.. over the last few years, however, i have been preoccupied with a number of crises in my family and stepping back slightly from 'theocratic' activity has allowed me to re evaluate a number of concerns and research sources other than the sanitized wt publications.. my eyes are now wide open - i found things which have appalled me and left me feeling extremely let down and disappointed by people i had really trusted.. i tried gently raising a few subjects with my mum (who was baptized early '70s and still remains a staunch wt supporter) but she will hear no criticism of the organization.

i understand this because the best part of her life has been invested in the religion and to acknowledge it may have got things wrong would be to recognize the last 40 years have been a vain waste.

redpilltwice

Welcome to the forum! 40+ years? Wow, the shock must have been BIG, but you DID IT, congrats! Maybe your mum isn't ready yet, but some real critical thinking can rear up any given time in this information era, just have patience and guard yourself against emotional backlash.

36

Good news to report: Congregations merged because lack of attendance, publishers & field service

by Khaleesi in

so it's official, i am happy to report that we merged with another congregation having the same problem.

why is it good news???

because people are either waking up, fading or just not buying into this organization any longer or walking away.... i think many young ones are just not buying into it as much, i see many in the congregation i go to very depressed and some i know personally going thru major depression especially the young "sisters" in their early 20s.... .

redpilltwice

Also in Europe, they are merging Congregations.. Example: where 2 congregations at the same Hall, and there is a lack of attendance in one of these Congregations, they are merged into one Congregation

So true anakin, I live in Holland and a few years ago, two congs merged into one in my city because of a lack of elders and ms. I was the youngest of the boe and I quit 5 months ago, The rest is getting older and weaker and don't seem to have much joy anymore. How long will this last before it truly collapses? In a bigger city nearby they also went from three congs to two. Of course they need ca$h from the KH's, but maybe one day they will invite elders from the third world to serve here , just like the RC church did with their lack of priests lol.

15

Babylonians Discovered Calculus

by cofty in

it had been assumed that rudimentary calculus was developed in europe in the 14th century but now it turns out that the babylonians worked it out more than 2000 years ago.. researchers have deciphered a detail on a cuneiform tablet held at the british museum and revealed that it describes the movement of jupiter.. babylonians believed that jupiter's position was integral to predicting the weather, the price of goods, and the fluctuating river levels throughout the year.. "the now-decoded 'text a' describes a procedure for calculating jupiter’s displacement across the ecliptic plane.. by tracking jupiter’s speed as a function of time and determining the area under a time-velocity curve.".

redpilltwice

Interesting line of defence Cofty. I thought you'd more straightforwardly point out that evolution doesn't necessitate humans getting smarter. Being dumber or having a smaller brain could equally have selective advantages. In fact I think some have argued humans are getting dumber. The opposite of the Flynn effect.

Intriguing statement Slimboyfat. After having read Evolution is a fact #9 - Less Chewing More Thinking, do you believe that "the MYH16 gene in humans that produces a protein called myosin heavy chain 16" will react on smaller brain size and return to bigger temporalis muscles? You know, like primates such as the chimpanzee or even the gorilla where this protein produces their powerful chewing pressure of the jaw.

15

Babylonians Discovered Calculus

by cofty in

it had been assumed that rudimentary calculus was developed in europe in the 14th century but now it turns out that the babylonians worked it out more than 2000 years ago.. researchers have deciphered a detail on a cuneiform tablet held at the british museum and revealed that it describes the movement of jupiter.. babylonians believed that jupiter's position was integral to predicting the weather, the price of goods, and the fluctuating river levels throughout the year.. "the now-decoded 'text a' describes a procedure for calculating jupiter’s displacement across the ecliptic plane.. by tracking jupiter’s speed as a function of time and determining the area under a time-velocity curve.".

redpilltwice

It sort of takes away the notion of people getting more intelligent over the centuries

Not really. They were so interested in Jupiter because they thought it was integral to predicting the weather, the price of goods, and the fluctuating river levels.

Cofty, thank you for your post, but are you telling that the Babylonian tendency to superstition and what we now know as pseudo science has something to do with their intelligence? Aren't millions today who have learned calculus at school also interested in astology and other superstition as well?

18

What shocking stories did you ever hear about?

by Truthexplorer in

as a pre-awakened ms, i heard of 2 stories that i found very shocking at the time.

please keep in mind, i was following wt blindly at the time and was part of what i thought was the true religion.

the first shocking story was when i attended a large meeting for elders and ministerial servants covering our circuit.

redpilltwice

Assumed pedo ring of six JW's including some elders. First hand knowledge because I was in the J.C.! Thank god it turned out not to be true, but boy oh boy, did it touche a nerve!

133

What are the biggest holes in evolution?

by shadow in

how honest are the proponents of evolution?

idk but curious to see what type of response there is on a topic like this or does their study only seek to confirm their preconceptions and ignore uncomfortable facts?

redpilltwice

Oh, and beware of Ken Miller if you thought that the D.I. has a hidden agenda.

133

What are the biggest holes in evolution?

by shadow in

how honest are the proponents of evolution?

idk but curious to see what type of response there is on a topic like this or does their study only seek to confirm their preconceptions and ignore uncomfortable facts?

redpilltwice

Cofty, for someone who wasn't aware of Francis Collins, you sound a bit too convincing. Have you ever considered Meyers work on the Cambrian Explosion? I doubt it. Have you ever read the counter arguments against Tiktalik? I did! I'll be back at you later, ok?