Posts by DogGone

12

Disfellowshiping a pagan practice says AWAKE! magazine

by Rufus T. Firefly in

jw
friends

the [catholic] hierarchys excommunication .

is altogether foreign to bible teachings.. .

the encyclopedia britannica says that papal excommunication is not without pagan influence.

DogGone

What a find! Stunning, really.... stunning....

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Jhine, My apologies on the late reply. My wife and I went on a nice little vacation and I checked out from JWN for a while. Not sure if you are still following this thread, but you asked....

You asked if the matter involving my family was reported. It was. All of this is about 20 years ago now, but the matter was reported. It all happened outside of the JW religion as my family is not involved in any way. At the time, I was at the beginning of my involvement. Reporting worked out well for a few reasons. The victims, my little brother and sister, were provided counseling. They were so very young. My sister was a toddler and my brother was maybe 4 or 5. The reaction from my step mother was strong - she was hurt beyond hurt. She felt betrayed and probably shamed that the abuse went on so long. On the positive side, she has become a regular volunteer with victim's services directly helping in that community. This really is a blip in our family history. My brother and sister are doing very well. My little sis is in university and my little brother has a great job and a house. Pretty darn good for a guy in his early twenties.

The abuser, well the reporting worked out well for her. She was a teenager who was herself abused, by her uncle, if I recall correctly. The family covered it up and she went on to do what she did as our close family friend and babysitter. I don't believe charges were ever pressed by the Crown due to her age and circumstance. But, she did receive help, perhaps under a youth program; I don't know, exactly. I've read that the reason many of the most intransigent abusers focus on the same gender and age as when they were victimized is they are mentally locked into what happened to them. Maybe this is why the recidivism stats for same-sex abusers are so much higher.

Sometimes my family points her out in the town when I visit. I don't even remember what she looks like. I don't hate her, unlike many in my family. I feel she is another victim in this whole affair. My family would jump down my throat if they heard my thoughts on it, though. What I have always had is pity. But then, I have my own worldview and my own story.

DogGone

37

So What Do You Think: Are JWs The WORST Religion One Could Be In?

by minimus in

jw
friends

be realistic..

DogGone

From The West Wing

JOSH
Thanks. Islamic extremist is to Islamic as "blank" is to Christianity.

Josh writes this on the board as he speaks it again to the kids.

JOSH
Islamic... extremist... is to... Islamic... as... "blank" is... to Christianity.

BOY 2
Christian Fundamentalists.

JOSH
No.

BOY 3
Jehovah's Witnesses?

JOSH
No. Guys, the Christian right may not be your cup of tea, but they're not blowing stuff up. "Islamic extremist is to Islamic as "blank is to Christianity."

No one responds.

Josh turns around and writes "KKK" on the dry erase board, and circles it.

56

My Judicial committee

by label licker in

jw
friends

it was six hours long.

at the beginning of the week i had four accusers and by the time i went (half way throught the week) i was up to twelve.

i was charged with apostasy, malicous slander, lying, revileing.

DogGone

Like something out of Kafka! Crazy crazy crazy.

I admire you for keeping it together. I would have lost it and said something that sealed the deal. Well, that is not true. I was so "in" I thanked the committee for making the difficult decision to disfellowship me.

Ack!

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Jhine,

Excellent, well thought out post. (When I had despaired that a rational discussion could be had)

The stats don't indicate someone is "cured". I've been very careful not to use that sort of language. In those numbers we can be sure there are those who have reoffended and have gotten away with it. However, the numbers are still significant. They would have to "get away with it" for up to 25 years, having a criminal record, possibly on a public notice lists, having friends and family aware of their past, having police in the area aware of their past, having social services aware of their past. Their time with the judicial system would have made them master criminals, better than all other criminals, even while, strangely enough, they are twice as likely to be caught for a non-sexual offence. It would also be odd that as our treatments, monitoring, and reporting laws have all strengthened they have become increasingly better at hiding their re-offense.

But, your point is valid. We don't know. That is why we should report.

If all sexual offenders, or even the vast majority, recidivate after they have been caught, incarcerated, given treatment, released on parole, provided supplemental counselling services, added to registries, told where they can live (in some states)... then reporting doesn't stop re-offense, it just delays it for a while.

Do you see the failure of logic here? "All offenders will reoffend, so we have to report... for the children". OK, so if we don't report they are 100% going to reoffend. If we do report they are going to jail for a few years and then are 100% going to reoffend. Nonsense.

The fact is, if we don't report we don't know what the re-offense rate it. However, I'm willing to wager everything I have and everything I am that it is MUCH higher than the rate for those that do get reported, convicted, etc. Unless you believe that all but 9-24% of offenders stop on their own you will find that you might just agree with me.

The low recidivism rate is a REASON to report rather than handle it in house (IMHO). It is also a reason not to go vigilante on every name on those registries. Now, it is my opinion that exposing the crime helped the offender and helped the victim. Therefore, I believe we need much less secrecy around this. Misguided opinions bandied about like fact that all offenders will reoffend work against that agenda. The StopItNow.org campaign has caused scores of offenders to turn themselves in despite the fact there was no offer of amnesty. Offenders are not all monsters. Certainly the one who struck my family isn't.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Ha ha. Do I ever. It's a touchy subject. I once suggested that just because you had pedophile attractions it didn't make you a monster (though professional help was in order). I was accused of advocating child abuse and promptly deleted my post.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Stillin, it is crazy how much data they collect. That one big US study which followed all released convicts included over 300,000 people. These aren't just anamolies.

I was able to find the new link for the Public Safety Canada paper: http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-eng.aspx Now this paper does not include some of the more recent studies noted in the Wikipedia article, but it is still a good read.

Most sexual offenders do not re-offend sexually over time. This may be the most important finding of this study as this finding is contrary to some strongly held beliefs. After 15 years, 73% of sexual offenders had not been charged with, or convicted of, another sexual offence. The sample was sufficiently large that very strong contradictory evidence is necessary to substantially change these recidivism estimates. Other studies have found similar results. Hanson and Bussière's (1998) quantitative review of recidivism studies found an average recidivism rate of 13.4% after a follow-up period of 4-5 years (n = 23,393). In a recent U.S. study of 9,691 sex offenders, the sexual recidivism rate was only 5.3% after three years (Langan, Schmitt, & Durose, 2003).

What I found most interesting was the difference in the rates for different abuser profiles. It was dramatic and changed a few myths I had in my head. Age is a factor in the rates of reoffence - older offenders are less likely to reoffend than younger offenders. Offenders of boys more likely than girls. Offenders who targetted someone outside the family more likely than an incestuous offender.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Talesin,

I wish you were correct and it was that simple. It is not. I am also concerned about misinformation which is why I posted authoritative links to back my claims. I'll certainly provide the benefit of the doubt; you may not have had the time or inclination to read them. But, I'm sure you are as concerned about accuracy as I am. I'm not a lawyer and I welcome the opportunity to be corrected if I am misunderstanding any point of law.

1. There is no federal reporting law requiring mandatory reporting. There are, however, reporting laws in every province. Those laws are not all exactly the same. (ref: http://www.victimsofviolence.on.ca/rev2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=404&Itemid=284

2. Every province requires reporting when a child is "in need of protection" or "at risk". This requirement overrides any confidentiality requirements excepting Lawyers. In Simon's scenario the Walmart employee WOULD be required to report in the law of every province I am familiar with. If some have read my posts to indicate that is NOT the case then I am truly sorry. If a child is "in need of protection" you have an absolute lawful duty to report in Canada. Sadly, however, that does NOT mean, as you suggest, every case of abuse must be reported under the laws of Canada. I refer you to the law in BC which defines when reporting is required:

(b) if the child has been, or is likely to be, sexually abused or exploited by the child's parent;

(c) if the child has been, or is likely to be, physically harmed, sexually abused or sexually exploited by another person and if the child's parent is unwilling or unable to protect the child;

(ref:http://www.bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws_new/document/ID/freeside/00_96046_01#section14 Part 3 - Section 13 and 14)

(ref: http://www.mcf.gov.bc.ca/child_protection/pdf/handbook_action_child_abuse.pdf Page 41)

There is a loophole there you can drive a bus through. The wording is slightly different in Ontario:

2. The child has been sexually molested or sexually exploited, by the person having charge of the child or by another person where the person having charge of the child knows or should know of the possibility of sexual molestation or sexual exploitation and fails to protect the child.

3. There is a risk that the child is likely to be sexually molested or sexually exploited as described in paragraph 3.

(ref: http://www.children.gov.on.ca/htdocs/english/documents/topics/childrensaid/Reportingchildabuseandneglect.pdf Page 8 and 9)

(ref: Section 72 (1) of the Child and Family Services Act - Province of Ontario)

In case you question my interpretation of the law, you may find this page from The Canadian Medical Protective Association helpful:

Duty to report

Every province and territory has legislation that imposes a duty on physicians to report to a child protection agency if there are reasonable grounds to believe that a child is in need of protection (which includes sexual abuse).

Although the Criminal Code does not oblige a physician to report a sexual offence, physicians must consider whether they have such an obligation under their provincial/territorial legislation.

For example, if a physician suspects that a youth is engaging in sexual activity with a person who is older than the exempted age difference, the physician may be required to report this information to a child protection agency, particularly where the child’s parent is unwilling or unable to protect the child. A similar reporting duty may exist if the physician suspects a child under the age of 12 is engaged in any sexual activity. The physician will wish to consider many factors including the extent to which the child is at risk of sexual abuse or exploitation, and the nature of the relationship with the parents.

(ref: http://www.cmpa-acpm.ca/cmpapd04/docs/resource_files/perspective/2010/02/com_p1002_10-e.cfm)

Of course you have a moral duty to report. Of course you do. Sadly, you may not have a legal requirement if, say, the parents are informed and have taken steps to protect the child. In the context of this thread, I think it is important to note where religious organizations have wiggle room. That they exploit this wiggle room to protect thier "reputation" and to protect offenders is deplorable. These laws need improvement.

3. It is certainly NOT a fact that every molester will reoffend. As if a reason to report is because you are certain they will reoffend. NUTZ. You report because a child is hurt and needs professional help. You report because this needs to be handled by professionals. You report because you want the abuser stopped incase it should happen again. You report because your heart is broke and you must do something. You don't report because of some made up statistic.

Frankly, as someone who has some experience with adolescent abusers, your statement is infuriating. The reality born out by many studies in many countries is that the majority of convicted sexual criminals do not reoffend. Those who seek treatment, support groups, and learn victim empathy have improved success rates. Please do not repeat this 97% lie. Abusers need to hear that they CAN stop and should not be given this constant societal message that they can't, that they are doomed, that they are absolutely unable to control themselves, that they WILL reoffend. The internal message is "Either kill yourself or just go ahead and reoffend already." It's so wrong and so counterproductive.

Earlier I linked to a 2010 entry in the Harvard Mental Health Letter which noted:

One long-term study of previously convicted pedophiles (with an average follow-up of 25 years) found that one-fourth of heterosexual pedophiles and one-half of homosexual or bisexual pedophiles went on to commit another sexual offense against children.

The other link was from Public Safety Canada which had a great review of the studies available. Although up two days ago, it is offline at the moment. Although not something I like to point to normally, Wikipedia has a decent article which links to some of those studies http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender

A 2002 study by the United States Department of Justice indicated that recidivism rates among sex offenders was 5.3 percent; that is, about 1 in 19 of released sex offenders were later arrested for another sex crime. The same study mentioned that 68 percent of released non-sex offenders were rearrested for any crime (both sex and non-sex offenses), while 43 percent of the released sex offenders were rearrested for any crime (and 24 percent re-convicted). [3]

A collection of official studies spanning the years 1983–2010 for all 50 states and the federal government of the US has been assembled. This URL provides a spreadsheet and .zip file containing sources supporting the DOJ study, where the average recidivism of sex offenders committing new sex crimes since 1983 is approximately 9 percent, compared to the 42 percent average recidivism rate for all felony offenders committing any new felony offense.

According to the Office of Justice Programs (OJP) of the United States Department of Justice, [4] in New York State the recidivism rate for sex offenders has been shown to be lower than any other crime except murder. Another report from the OJP which studied the recidivism of prisoners released in 1994 in 15 states (accounting for two-thirds of all prisoners released in the United States that year) [5] reached the same conclusion.

I apologize for resorting to Wikipedia. But if you are interested there are links to government sources for your consideration at the bottom of the article.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Simon,

Your post is very sensible. However, I think we are barking up the wrong tree. If we want mandatory reporting by religious institutions we need to change the laws. Only slightly over half of the States require mandatory reporting by clergy. Only 6 states, that I am aware of, disallow clergy privilege in the case of confessions (https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/manda.pdf). I'm not saying cases where an abuser comes forward should be treated differently than when the information comes by another route - I'm just stating that they ARE treated differently under the law. We will have much greater success changing the law than the WT.

In Canada, my own country, the Catholic Church published a booklet in 1992 stating "Everyone has a duty to report sexual abuse". Reporting has, evidently, been the internal policy since 2003. (http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2010/04/12/vatican-abuse-guidelines.html) However, some provinces, it is my understanding, only require reporting if there is a child "in need of protection". The requirement to report does not extend to confessions of past crimes, whether to the clergy, a physician, or a counselor. I believe the argument is to enable abusers an avenue to receive assistance so as not to abuse again.

Readers, please don’t flame me. I’m not advocating any given variation of the reporting laws. I’m stating what I understand to be fact about the law. It is my opinion that if you want real change get ahold of your political representative and make it happen. Flame me on that opinion all you want <grin>.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Jhine,

The intent of my second post was to provide a bit of support for Stillin. I felt he was being piled on - and not just by one person. It wasn't my intent to shame you. I appreciated reading your further emails and can certainly understand where you are coming from. It is an issue worth getting worked up about!

There is blame with the WT, for sure. Even as individuals we grow and learn. As a society we are slowly learning. The lack of reporting is not unique to the WT or to JWs. However, I certainly agree that other institutions have been quicker to respond with positive change. Those who should be in a position to provide insight are too often, in my insignificant opinion, making matters worse. It has been said around here that DF’ing an abuser doesn't help society at large. I think it is far worse than that. You take someone with so dangerous a disorder, you discourage him/her from seeking mental health assistance, you cut off all social contact with established social support systems, then you turn him/her loose without notifying authorities. I can't think of a more explosive situation.

One thing I feel I know is that secrecy is the absolute worst thing in these situations. In my dream world the secrecy about all of this would be long gone. That would take a social maturity I'm afraid is completely lacking.