Posts by DogGone

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

If I believe uncovered women are an affront to god (trust me, I don't) then how can that be reconciled with someone else's freedom to be uncovered? (please, be my guest).

Those who want to wear a head covering like a turbin, a kippah, or a hijab do so. Those who do not, don't. Those who do should not force others to, likewise, do. Those who do not shouldn't force others to, likewise, do not. I can't understand the challenge. It is only when either religious fundamentalism or secularism are forced on the unwilling that the need to reconcile anything arises.
This JW wasn't trying to make a law forcing this off the menu for everyone. She wasn't even fired and then suing saying it was religious persecution. The story is that she asked someone else to care for it. It is the employer's right to fire her if they don't find this a reasonable accommodation. The peanut gallery calling for her termination are being bigots. That is my view.

The big difference is that your sexuality is who you are. You cannot change it.

That same point was raised by Cofty. I simply cannot understand it. I know it was, for reasons passing understanding, important to some people to find out that homosexuality is genetic. I never understood in the slightest why it should matter. Why not respect accommodate and love someone regardless of whether it is a choice or not? I mean, really, if it were a choice would that make it OK to have homophobia? Of course not. Can you imagine if someone pointed out the reason why you don't discriminate against black people is because they had no choice? Like they are flawed, but what the heck, it isn't like the could choose it.
Homosexuality, race, religion, politics, and gender are all part of the great mosaic of society. But I would say that, raised and indoctrinated as a Canadian.
Freedom of religion was an early right in the long march of human rights, not far behind property rights. Having laid the ground work for many rights which have come after, the notion to throw it away is repugnant to me.
Cofty asked me why I equate the bigotry. They are opposite sides of the same coin to me, the dislike of the other. Especially when it comes in contact with or in any way inconveniences someone. Even when it doesn't, man oh man people get upset. How does an RCMP member wearing a turbin inconvenience a single person? And yet, man oh man, it was a huge debate years ago.
I know many of my fellow atheists and strong agnostics advocate for a secular public place, for the repression of religious superstition. To me those are dangerous, regressive, and foolish ideas. They are born of the same intolerance for different ideas and lifestyles (whether chosen or inherited).

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

Average Joe, I read the situation the same as you do. And reading his response, it seems he refused to eat the meal and left in a huff. Why? Because he wanted blood pudding? Well, no... because he went home and ate a couple hours later and he doesn't have it at home. He got in a huff because someone else's beliefs inconvenienced him.

Had they run out of blood pudding I'm sure he would have been disappointed but reasonable. Had he been told the lady who makes it had to go to the hospital, sorry it isn't available today, he would have dealt with it, I'm sure. So, my take is that it isn't even the fact he was inconvenienced... it was that someone's religion dared inconvenience him.

To me, he is an absolute tool and a symptom of a problem.

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

GreatTeacher, I completely agree with what you wrote. I'm not sure what the job description was or what employment arrangement was made for this JW lady, but if that was the requirement and agreement, I agree. The fact the employer defended the employee makes me think there is more than we know about the relationship and understanding here, but I really don't know.

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

Cofty, that last post is a non-sequitur. How is that equating superstition with sexuality? It is equating the bigotry - the statement they should leave it at home. I heard it a hundred times about gay pride parades. "I don't care if they are gay, but get it out of my face, leave it at home". Bigotry is bigotry. That is what I'm equating

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

I wasn't equating religious superstitions with phobias and sexuality, I was asking you if you would accommodate those differently than religious superstitions. You could say, "yes, I would, completely different". You could say "no, people should keep these things out of the public square".

I was equating bigotry against religion with bigotry against sexuality or gender identity. That is because, bigotry is, by definition, intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself. I find the question of tolerance and accommodation at the heart of this discussion and the kind of society we want to live in.

Moving from phobias and sexuality and back to the more analogous region of ideas and beliefs, what about situations like my friend and his wifi nuttiness?

I appreciate your pointing out the specific part of my post you were disagreeing with. Bad wording on my part. I meant, no one should be required, on pain of losing employment, to do something which is against their conscience when reasonable accommodation can be made.

The history of Quakers in WWI and WWII and the issues around alternative service and munitions manufacturing are well documented. Apparently an atheist airman in Nevada was going to lose his job unless he said the oath "so help me God". Nevertheless, it is tedious to dig up examples for a thought experiment.

You do say that people aren't forced to take these jobs, and that is a fair point. What about forcing someone who has a job, on pain of job loss, to do something that can otherwise be reasonably accommodated?

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

I apologize if I have misrepresented your view. I asked if that was how you felt since your statement was unqualified. I admit, I don't understand.

We have a difference of opinion on the triviality of a side dish at an all-day breakfast, fair enough.

My statement was that "Society works because we tolerate differences in each other and allow reasonable accommodation for differences. Asking another to perform the task is reasonable." When you replied that "I could not disagree more. If you get paid to do a job do it. Keep religion at home where it belongs." I read that you disagreed with the concept of reasonable accommodation, I did not read it as meaning that you find this specific accommodation unreasonable. I'm sorry for misreading you.

Frankly, though, the statement "keep religion at home where it belongs" is bigoted. You don't want society to tolerate the bigotry of others, I get that. But, why fight bigotry with bigotry? People were once told to keep their "gayness" or their "transgender" at home. In Canada we recently had a federal election that turned, in part, on whether Quebec should ban religious head coverings from government employees... leave it at home, the critics said. Among those critics were many "fundies" who are discriminating against others based on religion, just one that is not theirs.

Your argument surprises me, do you feel the case in question is an example of discrimination? How so?

You are falsely portraying me as unreasonable or uncompromising even in trivial details. This is a straw man.

I was not meaning to portray, I was trying to ask and, even though immodest, to attempt to enlighten and broaden your perspective on the subject. I'm sorry it came across as a straw man. At this point, I don't know where you draw the line on what is reasonable or trivial and where you would be willing to have society compromise. I retract any insinuation I have made about where you fall on these matters, other than that fullfulling a work requirement to personally prepare a given breakfast side is a non-trivial matter.

11

Walking Fish - evolution or adaptation?

by Earnest in

a recent article in nature reports on a fish that has a pelvic girdle with features associated with terrestrial vertebrates.. discuss..

DogGone

Was there no competition to be the "first" common ancestor?

Perhaps, but something won and it proliferated so much that the record shows a single tree. You are talking here about the actual origin of life, right? Because early on there are plenty of phyla that got lopped off. That is, plenty of early life patterns that did not win the competition.

11

Walking Fish - evolution or adaptation?

by Earnest in

a recent article in nature reports on a fish that has a pelvic girdle with features associated with terrestrial vertebrates.. discuss..

DogGone

I'm confused. Evolution is the long accumulation of adaptations that provide selective advantage. Where is the OR? It is like asking, Bingo - Charity fund raiser or game of chance?

The answer is "yes".

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

Because a person's irrational superstitions should not affect the rest of society.

The test I used was "reasonable accommodation", in my opinion an excellent development in Common Law. Since the issue at question is trivial, I'm gathering you don't want irrational superstitions to affect society in even the tiniest of ways. Is that a fair statement?

Leaving aside the determination of what is "irrational", it is a very regressive stand to take. It is the same argument fundamentalists have made about homosexuals, Catholics, the transgender, the mentally handicapped, Jews, etc.

I don't want to live in a society where people have to leave parts of themselves at home no matter how trivial the affect to Society. There are plenty of irrational superstitions out there. There are plenty of things that were once viewed as sicknesses or superstitions that society has come to embrace. A society that sets upon itself to make a determination and suppress even reasonable accommodation presents a greater danger than a society which simply allows people to be wrong, so long as they are not unreasonably affecting society or others.

The question is too vague. What other questions do you have in mind?

I know we share a distaste for religious superstition. But, reasonable accommodation applies to other spheres of thought and action. I was wondering, if your uncompromising stance applies only to religiously derived actions or to other ethical systems and actions.

One of my staff has an irrational fear of Halloween figurines. I have seen her in tears when a scary doll was near her desk. I think it is a reasonable accommodation to ask others to help with Halloween decorations and to ensure they don't have anything near her desk or that will surprise her where she works in our office. If she worked for a retailer, I would hope they would be sensitive to her. Would you agree?

My mother has, what I consider, an irrational view of the sanctity of animals. I do not eat foie gras in front of her for this reason. If she worked in a restaurant she would ask someone else to prepare it. It bothers her that much. Just one item on the menu, she isn't a vegan. Should she leave her concern for the treatment of animals at home and not affect the rest of society?

A really good friend of mine reads too many questionable internet blogs. He has determined that radio waves are unhealthy for his family. No wireless devices in his home. I've tried to point out the EMR coming from our sun, but he is convinced we are all being killed. He might ask to work at a spot as far away from a wireless access point as practical. Is this the sort of irrational superstition that should not affect the rest of society?

Not to go ten rounds on a bunch of scenarios, I was merely wondering if you wish all irrational requests suppressed so they don't affect society or only those arising from religion.

109

JW Chef Refuses to Cook Black Pudding

by cofty in

sainsbury's has been forced to apologise after its jehovah's witness chef refused to serve a customer black pudding with his full english breakfast.alan mackay was stunned when he was told he could not enjoy the staple, made up of animal fat, blood and oatmeal, with his meal at the branch in arnold, nottingham.after receiving his incomplete dish the former police officer was told the black pudding would not be served because it was against the religious beliefs of the chef to do so....

DogGone

Why does it belong only at home?

Do you feel the same way about other questions of integrity and conscience or only those that arise from religion?