Posts by DogGone

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

LOST: “Never mind whether or not they will, or might reoffend, they should never be allowed that chance. they should recive the death peanlty, end of problem. much cheaper option too.”

LOST: “The abuser was female, big difference between a male abuser and a female abuser, maybe you should have been clear on that in you initial post.”

LOST: “still in, I made it perfectly clear, paedophiles, who are responsible for heinous crimes against children, should be put to death.”

LOST: “Why do you continuosly 'twist' what I say…….I didn’t say kill them all”

You did unreservedly say they should be put to death. I’m not twisting your words, I’m asking for clarification to see if there is more nuance in your opinion of what society should do or if it is merely a moral high ground. I have my answer and withdraw my questions.

LOST: “The lie, the deception, the trickery. that you and your wife support and worship…..I for sure wouldn't want to be involved in worshiping satan the devil… Could be, jw's are brainwashed demon possessed slaves ? scary thought that actually, but it fits perfectly.”

LOST: “Perhaps you choose to ignore the effects it has on peoples lives, the actual victim.”

LOST: “If more people had courage, instead of cowardice, and didn't cover things up, there would be less suffering.”

LOST: “Making broad sweeping generalisations, doesn't cut it, neither does omitting information under a pretence to draw memebers into a deliberate inflamed conversation.”

LOST: “do you take the jehovist stance of covering up…?”

LOST: “My tone of writing ? how do come to that conclusion ?”

I can’t imagine how I would have had cause to wonder about your tone

LOST: “I fail to see how which country one lives in is relevant to crime and punishment.”

OK, wow!

Lost, you confuse questions with statements. You are confusing Stillin and myself. You are the one questioning motives. No one is questioning yours. Not even by using disingenuous language such as “one could say”. You seem to confuse several thoughts when using points about the massive failings of religion to argue for capital punishment. Or at least, I'm having trouble following the point.

I don't think you are interested in a good faith conversation with me about the topics that are close to my heart. Respectfully, I'm going to bow out from further conversation with you on this topic. All the best.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

jgnat,

That is the million dollar question. Personally, I think it is a question of management not cure. But, what really do I know? I am worried that killing all abusers would send the wrong message to some, that they should just kill the victim since the punishment is the same and the witness is gone. But, that is an opinion that carries no merit, just one mans' thought.

Lost,

You are 100% crystal clear on your stance that adult pedophiles who commit "heinous crimes" against children should be killed. I don't think anyone reading this could doubt that this is what you firmly believe. I don't agree, nor do I think this has much to do with the question of reporting. If you want the death penalty, talk to your political representative in whatever country you call home.

I asked if you were angry because of the tone of your posts. Your questions challenged whether we are cowards, jehovists, ignoring, covering up, etc. It might just be your writing style and I apologize for asking if you were angry. I won't assume it angered you to ask if you were angry, of course. That wouldn't make any sense.

Lost, we are talking past one another. You are talking about a world which is black and white and I'm talking about the grey. You bring up children getting raped, tortured and buggered. It is easy to say kill them all! However, not all cases are so black and white. Not all abuse takes that form. You ask if we are going to ask about each scenario and pick apart the ones that seem less than the other? YES I AM!! If you are going to say kill them all I am going to ask:

- does that include adolescents? (you have answered no)

- does that include women? (you have answered yes)

- does that include inappropriate touching?

- does that include creepy text messages, phone calls, or emails?

- does that include peeping toms?

- does that include mentally disadvantaged people?

- does that include non sexual abuse?

- does that include when the victim is sleeping?

- does that include when the abuser confesses?

- does that include those who induce kids to undress on a webcam?

- does that include people who sneak cameras into locker rooms?

- does that include people under the age of 25 that engage in sexual activity with people over the age of 16?

- does that include people over the age of 18 who engage in sexual activity with people under the age of 18?

- does that include people viewing child pornography?

- does that include people viewing so called "jailbait"?

- does that include when the victim, now an adult, does not want the abuser to be killed?

You started with an unqualified statement and now you have qualified it with "adult" and "heinous". Simply put, what is "adult" and what is "heinous"? Is your stand really so simple?

And even if you answered all those questions, that is one person's view. If you answered yes down the line I'd applaud your consistency. But, it is neither the law nor germane to the question of what Catholics or JW's have or will do on the matter of reporting. My point is simple, if you want them to report, make it the law. If you want to kill all the pedophiles, well, I'm going to respectfully disagree. I'm also going to insist that your opinion is an unreflective and easy emotional solution to a deeply complex and challenging problem.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Lost,

My initial post was about recidivism rates. I have no idea why I should have been clear about the gender of someone who abused members of my family. It did not come up until later when Jhine and I were having a thoughtful conversation about whether abusers can truly be reformed. I don't really think you believe that it makes a difference if it is a female who sexually abused my siblings. So, I'm going to leave that comment alone.

I'm not sure who you are accusing of making broad generalizations. Stillin and I, among others, have actually been arguing against broad generalizations.

Are you angry at Stillin and I because you feel we are defending the WTS and other religious organizations? I took Stillin's entire thread to be a question about what is the correct balance. What should and should not be done in these aweful situations. Things like the relationship of the victim, the duration, the age of the abuser, the age of the abused all are factors, in my mind, that should be taken into consideration. I also think the discussion should extend beyond sexual abuse to emotional and physical abuse. Is your stance the same for the emotional and physical abuse of a youth?

It's true, I have argued against the (mistaken) view that the law requires the WTS to report in all cases in all jurisdictions (it doesn't). That’s why they call the headquarters for legal advice. I even pointed out the distinction between States which have a confessional exemption (almost all States) and those with a broad Clergy exemption (over half). That distinction is largely lost.

Facts matter.

I don’t agree with your opinion or rhetoric. But, that is entirely OK. We are not in a cult anymore and can actually have wildly different views on things.

12

Disfellowshiping a pagan practice says AWAKE! magazine

by Rufus T. Firefly in

jw
friends

the [catholic] hierarchys excommunication .

is altogether foreign to bible teachings.. .

the encyclopedia britannica says that papal excommunication is not without pagan influence.

DogGone

What a find! Stunning, really.... stunning....

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Jhine, My apologies on the late reply. My wife and I went on a nice little vacation and I checked out from JWN for a while. Not sure if you are still following this thread, but you asked....

You asked if the matter involving my family was reported. It was. All of this is about 20 years ago now, but the matter was reported. It all happened outside of the JW religion as my family is not involved in any way. At the time, I was at the beginning of my involvement. Reporting worked out well for a few reasons. The victims, my little brother and sister, were provided counseling. They were so very young. My sister was a toddler and my brother was maybe 4 or 5. The reaction from my step mother was strong - she was hurt beyond hurt. She felt betrayed and probably shamed that the abuse went on so long. On the positive side, she has become a regular volunteer with victim's services directly helping in that community. This really is a blip in our family history. My brother and sister are doing very well. My little sis is in university and my little brother has a great job and a house. Pretty darn good for a guy in his early twenties.

The abuser, well the reporting worked out well for her. She was a teenager who was herself abused, by her uncle, if I recall correctly. The family covered it up and she went on to do what she did as our close family friend and babysitter. I don't believe charges were ever pressed by the Crown due to her age and circumstance. But, she did receive help, perhaps under a youth program; I don't know, exactly. I've read that the reason many of the most intransigent abusers focus on the same gender and age as when they were victimized is they are mentally locked into what happened to them. Maybe this is why the recidivism stats for same-sex abusers are so much higher.

Sometimes my family points her out in the town when I visit. I don't even remember what she looks like. I don't hate her, unlike many in my family. I feel she is another victim in this whole affair. My family would jump down my throat if they heard my thoughts on it, though. What I have always had is pity. But then, I have my own worldview and my own story.

DogGone

37

So What Do You Think: Are JWs The WORST Religion One Could Be In?

by minimus in

jw
friends

be realistic..

DogGone

From The West Wing

JOSH
Thanks. Islamic extremist is to Islamic as "blank" is to Christianity.

Josh writes this on the board as he speaks it again to the kids.

JOSH
Islamic... extremist... is to... Islamic... as... "blank" is... to Christianity.

BOY 2
Christian Fundamentalists.

JOSH
No.

BOY 3
Jehovah's Witnesses?

JOSH
No. Guys, the Christian right may not be your cup of tea, but they're not blowing stuff up. "Islamic extremist is to Islamic as "blank is to Christianity."

No one responds.

Josh turns around and writes "KKK" on the dry erase board, and circles it.

56

My Judicial committee

by label licker in

jw
friends

it was six hours long.

at the beginning of the week i had four accusers and by the time i went (half way throught the week) i was up to twelve.

i was charged with apostasy, malicous slander, lying, revileing.

DogGone

Like something out of Kafka! Crazy crazy crazy.

I admire you for keeping it together. I would have lost it and said something that sealed the deal. Well, that is not true. I was so "in" I thanked the committee for making the difficult decision to disfellowship me.

Ack!

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Jhine,

Excellent, well thought out post. (When I had despaired that a rational discussion could be had)

The stats don't indicate someone is "cured". I've been very careful not to use that sort of language. In those numbers we can be sure there are those who have reoffended and have gotten away with it. However, the numbers are still significant. They would have to "get away with it" for up to 25 years, having a criminal record, possibly on a public notice lists, having friends and family aware of their past, having police in the area aware of their past, having social services aware of their past. Their time with the judicial system would have made them master criminals, better than all other criminals, even while, strangely enough, they are twice as likely to be caught for a non-sexual offence. It would also be odd that as our treatments, monitoring, and reporting laws have all strengthened they have become increasingly better at hiding their re-offense.

But, your point is valid. We don't know. That is why we should report.

If all sexual offenders, or even the vast majority, recidivate after they have been caught, incarcerated, given treatment, released on parole, provided supplemental counselling services, added to registries, told where they can live (in some states)... then reporting doesn't stop re-offense, it just delays it for a while.

Do you see the failure of logic here? "All offenders will reoffend, so we have to report... for the children". OK, so if we don't report they are 100% going to reoffend. If we do report they are going to jail for a few years and then are 100% going to reoffend. Nonsense.

The fact is, if we don't report we don't know what the re-offense rate it. However, I'm willing to wager everything I have and everything I am that it is MUCH higher than the rate for those that do get reported, convicted, etc. Unless you believe that all but 9-24% of offenders stop on their own you will find that you might just agree with me.

The low recidivism rate is a REASON to report rather than handle it in house (IMHO). It is also a reason not to go vigilante on every name on those registries. Now, it is my opinion that exposing the crime helped the offender and helped the victim. Therefore, I believe we need much less secrecy around this. Misguided opinions bandied about like fact that all offenders will reoffend work against that agenda. The StopItNow.org campaign has caused scores of offenders to turn themselves in despite the fact there was no offer of amnesty. Offenders are not all monsters. Certainly the one who struck my family isn't.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Ha ha. Do I ever. It's a touchy subject. I once suggested that just because you had pedophile attractions it didn't make you a monster (though professional help was in order). I was accused of advocating child abuse and promptly deleted my post.

155

Protecting pedophiles while protecting children

by stillin in

i know that a lynch mob forms whenever there's a hint of anybody being a pedophile, but the truth is that not all are the slavering, predatorial animals that they are painted to be.

each circumstance has its' own specifics.

in defense of the wts, they do keep track of confirmed pedophiles now.

DogGone

Stillin, it is crazy how much data they collect. That one big US study which followed all released convicts included over 300,000 people. These aren't just anamolies.

I was able to find the new link for the Public Safety Canada paper: http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/rsrcs/pblctns/sx-ffndr-rcdvsm/index-eng.aspx Now this paper does not include some of the more recent studies noted in the Wikipedia article, but it is still a good read.

Most sexual offenders do not re-offend sexually over time. This may be the most important finding of this study as this finding is contrary to some strongly held beliefs. After 15 years, 73% of sexual offenders had not been charged with, or convicted of, another sexual offence. The sample was sufficiently large that very strong contradictory evidence is necessary to substantially change these recidivism estimates. Other studies have found similar results. Hanson and Bussière's (1998) quantitative review of recidivism studies found an average recidivism rate of 13.4% after a follow-up period of 4-5 years (n = 23,393). In a recent U.S. study of 9,691 sex offenders, the sexual recidivism rate was only 5.3% after three years (Langan, Schmitt, & Durose, 2003).

What I found most interesting was the difference in the rates for different abuser profiles. It was dramatic and changed a few myths I had in my head. Age is a factor in the rates of reoffence - older offenders are less likely to reoffend than younger offenders. Offenders of boys more likely than girls. Offenders who targetted someone outside the family more likely than an incestuous offender.