Posts by Believer

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Good morning! This has been an interesting and informative thread. Thanks to everyone who posted their comments to my request to start a conversation about why people still believe in God after leaving the WT. Maybe we can follow up on new threads. But before I complete this one, I want to respond to a couple of questions:

Coffy and StartingOver, you asked me to provide you with a list of books about Jesus. I said, “Google it!” This morning I see that you continued to challenge me on this topic. If you had googled it, you would have seen, as probably the first entry, a link to an article by Wikipedia entitled “List of Books About Jesus.” But so that you don't have to burden yourselves with googling, here is the link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_books_about_Jesus

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Starting Over, you shared with me the video called “Dear Believer, Why Do You Believe.” As I said, I will look at the video and respond to the questions raised as soon as I can. I’ll start another thread on it and PM you when I do.

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2+2=5, you said you don’t know what I believe. Here it is in a nutshell: I believe in God, but not in any particular religion. I believe God is good, wise, loving, and the first cause of everything. I believe his purpose in creating man is for man to learn to become like God experientially (perfect as he is perfect). And I believe that our life on earth is just the first leg of a long journey Godward.

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Giles Gray, I will respond to your questions.

If "we don't have the capacity to experience spiritual things through our senses...", as you said in your earlier post, how can anyone know if a supernatural experience is authentic?

I meant that we cannot experience spiritual things through our 5 physical/animal senses – seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, and touching. But humans have an additional sense. Some call it intuition, or the 6th sense. This 6th sense is how we perceive spiritual things. The 5 senses are objective and can be authenticated in a way that others readily accept, i.e., they can taste, touch, see, hear, smell it too. But the 6th sense is subjective. It is a personal understanding or epiphany or revelation. One person cannot prove their personal spiritual revelations to another. He may be able to articulate it, but authenticating it can only occur if the other person is also able to perceive it through their 6th sense. But a spiritual revelation is just as real to a person who uses that sense as are the things perceived with the animal senses. Its kind of like love. If I love someone, I know it. But everyone else will just have to take my word for it.

So even if an angel appeared to you, how would you know it was not some spiritual hoax by some other being acting as an angel?
If Jesus materialised right in front of you, how would or could you know that it wasn't actually Zeus playing a game?

I put these two questions together, because they are basically asking the same thing. They do not ask whether Jesus, Zeus, an angel, or being acting like an angel are real. They only ask how one can tell the difference between a good one or a bad one. It would be the same way we can tell if humans are good or bad – by their works and what comes out of their mouths.

And if Satan wrote the bible, how do you know that he hasn't tricked everyone into thinking otherwise? What valid argument could prove or disprove such a claim?

To answer that question, I’d have to assume arguendo that Satan wrote the Bible (which for the record, I reject.) But assuming he is the actual author, you ask now could I know he hasn’t tricked everyone into thinking he didn’t write it. Well, the historical record offers valid evidence that men actually wrote it. Look it up. I think that’s pretty good empirical evidence that would support the conclusion that Satan did not write it. But let’s assume you aren’t really asking who was the actual penmen, but rather are asking whether Satan inspired the writing of the Bible, and whether the thoughts and ideas in the Bible are those of Satan. Well, if that were the supposition upon which this question is based, then if Satan wrote the bible, that would be proof that God and other supernatural beings exist. Right? Well, my position is that God does exist. So if we begin with the established position that Satan is out there writing books, then my position is authenticated.

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And that about does it. So in this thread, I discovered that there are at least 20 believers, including 4 who believe, but have doubts about the goodness of God, and at least 19 non-believers, including 1 who wants to believe, and 2 who are open to more information. 20 to 19 in favor of belief is not bad. According to this thread, the non-believers do not outnumber the believers. So maybe we can have more conversations about belief after JW. Believer Out!

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Giles Gray, “inspired by” doesn’t mean God wrote it. I means God was the inspiration, the muse. That’s all. People may redefine the word, but look it up in any trusted dictionary. Also when you consider the crude and elementary understanding of so many things in the Bible, its pretty clear that an all wise and loving Creator could not have been the actual author. And the Bible doesn't say that God wrote the Bible. A better example of a book written by God would be Jesus. His life was the personification of the word and will of God. And that is actually what the NT says.

Now, the questions you ask are questions that would be posed by a mind that cannot really know anything. So flighty and philosophical. Like, “How do you know that blue is really blue or just what you have been told to call blue?” It is hard to have a conversation with a mind that thinks like the wind. But let’s do this another day, when you have real questions that can spark an intelligent conversation.

Good night all.

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Dubstepped, I was apprehensive about posting here and but my experience so far has been rather mild. The scenario you described is the norm. The loudest voices tend dominate, but that isn’t proof that they have convinced anyone. They have only caused believers to be more careful about where and how they share their beliefs.

I personally don’t mind the questioning. As many people here say, especially atheists, if what one believes is true then it should be able to stand under scrutiny. I believe that and I will do my best to stand. I just wish I had more time to answer each one. It’s questions that helps refine faith and beliefs. Even if loud voices shout, I think the believers who are lurking or reading along may gain something from the interchange. And maybe, just maybe, something will be said to make even the atheist pause.

The saddest thing to me about atheism is the way the proponents resign themselves to the same destiny as the unreasoning animals. They don’t seem to understand that man is different for a reason. We start as animals, but that is only the beginning of the journey of life. They are choosing to get off the ride before they even get to the first turn.

But it’s getting late here and I have many things to do. I want to respond to just one or two more comments and then I gotta go. Perhaps I’ll start other threads to continue discussion along this line in future days. If I do, I’ll look forward to your input.

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Oh, and I did answer your question. I am a convert. Fortunately none of my family converted and my children were taught by me and trusted me, and left when I left. So leaving was easier for me than for many JWs.

I was a convert, but not from any other religion. I was a teenager when I was baptized with JWs and I had no religious training or upbringing. It was solely my choice to join and my choice to leave.

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Starting Over, you want me to prove there are other books about Jesus beside the NT? Just google it. They are not hard to find! If you want to find other books about Jesus, just look.

And thank you for the video. I'd love to respond to it. Is there a transcript of it? It asks so many important questions that deserve a response. If you can direct me to a transcript, I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, I'll listen again tomorrow, take some notes and get back to you. This should be interesting!

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Great Teacher, I agree. So shred the ideas, but respect the person. There is no need for personal attacks and name calling. I don't there there has been any yet on this thread. (Can't remember and don't wanna look back.) So, so far so good!

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Azor, it is my preference that people speak to one another with respect. But not all people will. If you don't want to, then don't.

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Coffy:

There are no books that tell us anything at all about Jesus outside the NT.

You haven't looked far enough. There are dozens, maybe even hundreds.

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Without even stopping to analyze the evidence against a moral god, I find the bible to be completely illogical.

I can't defend everything in the Bible other that to say it was a reflection of how the Jews saw God and the way people have since interpreted those expressions.

But again, my intent here is not to defend religion and religious creeds. I hoped to talk about why people believe in God. Can you see the difference?

240

Introduction - Any Believers?

by Believer in

i’ve been reading it for a few of years off and on, but have been a little too ... maybe ... timid to join.

i left the watchtower organization almost 20 years ago but never abandoned my faith and belief in god.

i knew the gb/organization didn’t represent god, so when i lost my faith in them, i managed to keep my faith in an all wise benevolent creator.

Believer

Bonsai, you said:

Any super being that would be above the problems and bad inclinations that inflict us fleshly beings would step up to the plate and physically and openly help us to see without a doubt that violence, killing and intolerance are not what he is about. A responsible super being would take an active role in clearing up the confusion that we have about this theoretical god. Any god that can't take the time to do that is not worth my time.

But he did. He sent Jesus to address all those issues. Jesus corrected the errors of the Jewish religious system and explained God more fully. He taught the things that God wanted us to know and demonstrated a godly way of living. So the problem is not that the ‘super being’ hasn’t done it, it is that the people aren’t listening. Even in the Christian religion, there are many teachings that did not originate with Jesus. He has been largely ignored.