PioneerSchmioneer

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Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

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  23

  Observations/Questions from forum newbie

  by Obrien in

  1. forum
  2. suggestions

  i joined about 5 days ago and have some observations/questions.. does anyone notice the profile update doesn't seem to work?

  i like reading some of the profiles, most accounts don't have them and maybe that's because the tool doesn't function anymore?.

  also i've been noticing a diverse number of subjects which made me think of the categories of people on here.

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  Not everyone goes through grief upon leaving because not everyone has the same connections or same experiences upon leaving.

  I did not have a sad leaving. It was a very happy one for me.
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  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  I don't have anything more to offer to you.

  But what's more unhelpful? Discussing how to offer a critical analysis of the subject?

  Or posting endlessly again and again in an argument with somebody when you could be providing that evidence you say you have that you could enlighten us with but you refuse to show?
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  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  I have actually been part of this discussion from the earliest part. I have contributed much, beginning 4 days ago, stating how Babylon the Great could be Rome or Jerusalem, even making a list of how since from the very beginning, starting from the Church Fathers, Christians have used various ways of interpreting Revelation, including the:

  • Preterist View
  • Critical View
  • Idealist View
  • Historist View and
  • Futurist View.

  I've answered other people's questions on this very thread afterwards. I wasn't just jumping on you. I've been following this subject since the beginning.

  Or haven't you noticed?

  Then it got to the point that two of you were going back and forth sticking your tongues out at each other like infants and, instead of offering anything worthwhile, just claiming the same thing: "My argument is based on sound scholarship."

  But you didn't offer that scholarship. So I stepped in and posted what I did knowing that you were just angry, not thinking--just being emotional.

  You are just mad because I pointed out that anyone can say what you did, like little school kids calling each other names. Your are mad that I called you out, and if your argument is really all that you say it is, where are all these scholars and academics that you say you have supporting you?

  Instead of wasting your time calling me a troll, you could have typed out all the information to prove you're point.

  But you have no point. You are just angry.

  When you give a report, you have to cite your sources, you just can't say it is supported by scholars. Which scholars? What studies? Where can we find them? What books? What thesis? When was it published? Who wrote it?

  It's called a "bibliography," and when you have a point, you support it, something like this:

  At Acts 21:20, the author is merely stressing the phenomenal growth of Christianity among Jews because the Greek expression for "many thousands of believers" actually means myriads or tens of thousands, and according to the best scholarship we have, there was only about 1000-7000 Christians between 60-70 AD when this account supposedly happened (and not all of them were Jewish).--Bart Ehrman, Big Think: How Christianity Conquered Rome Through Simple Math, 7/23/2023.

  That last part, the bold section, is the bibliography. The argument isn't based on the scholarship--it doesn't fall on just one report because there are others--but the person presenting the statement on the text in Acts presents their view, and a voice to help people to understand why they reach their conclusion.

  Just saying your work is supported by scholars doesn't prove anything, however. And just because it has a scholar to back it up doesn't prove you are right. The use of a bibliography is when you quote or cite another's work in your method of reasoning. Your work still has to be tested. If the scholar is taken away, does the method of reasoning still stand? If it does, then the critical analysis is called a "theory," and it works. That is critical analytic theory.

  If all you can do is quote scholars like "proof texts," you might as well quote the Bible as your authority, like the Watchtower. Quoting others is not proving you are a critical thinker. Being able to figure things out in the way an academic can by applying the methods they use--that is critical thinking.

  There's a difference.
• 
  23

  Observations/Questions from forum newbie

  by Obrien in

  1. forum
  2. suggestions

  i joined about 5 days ago and have some observations/questions.. does anyone notice the profile update doesn't seem to work?

  i like reading some of the profiles, most accounts don't have them and maybe that's because the tool doesn't function anymore?.

  also i've been noticing a diverse number of subjects which made me think of the categories of people on here.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  PioneerSchmioneer

  I'm with Vidiot.

  Nothing against Obrien, but I don't fit into any of those new catagories. The other ones, already in use by JWs, explain who we are.

  For instance, I am POMO, meaning Physically Out, Mentally Out.

  It took some time for the exJW/PIMO community to work together to develop a lingo and to create these catagories.

  Q stands for "questioning." I stands for "in."

  We don't have a letter (yet) for describing someone who was never a JW as these letters are used to describe someone's personal experience for living through the Watchtower religion--and after use in common acceptable discussion in our vernacular.
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  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  Jeffro,

  I hate to break this to you, but I was being sarcastic.

  As you notice, my comment ended with this oddly worded statement:

  That will learn me.

  Perhaps that is the way you usually speak, but it is bad grammar where I come from. That was a clue that I was not serious.

  Your claim in a debate that your comment aligns with what scholars say is not in line with rules of critical thinking methodology because it is a creates a logical fallacy known as an "argument from authority."

  See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/appeal-to-authority

  Don't be mad at me. After leaving the Watchtower, I taught critical analytical religious studies for almost 30 years. Though I am retired today, the rules haven't changed.

  Neither of you have a leg to stand on because you both broke the rules. Crying won't help. Arguing about it just makes you look more and more uneducated.

  I really don't know you. I was just commenting. Get mad at me all you want. I don't make this stuff up.
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  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  You can just skip what I said and offer a list of those scholars to the other guy and prove your original point.

  That will learn me.
• 
  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  When you learned the scientific method in either high school or college, and I am sure you learned how to validate someone's work, the critical method, etc?

  This is why you can't say something like, "My views are consistent with scholarship" to prove a point. That doesn't prove a point. The Watchtower does it all the time (and in fact cults do it--it's a big cult move to try to impress people). It's a fallacy. You can't prove anything by citing a professional or "expert."

  There are no real "experts" in anything. In academia there are only conclusions and theories which are changing all the time. All we can do is check someone's method at arriving at their answer.

  So when anyone says what you did, they usually do it with lots of emotion and don't like to hear that it doesn't prove anything.
• 
  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  In other words, according to critical analysis (which all scholars follow) your view is not sound if your method is not sound.

  Claiming your view is sound because it "matches" with with another scholar is called "arguing from authority," which is a logical fallacy. That is not a sound way to produce anything in critical methodology.

  You two were wrong from the start.
• 
  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  It doesn't matter if your views are consistent with scholarship. Your views have to stand on their own, as if no academics had ever existed.

  In other words, your methodology has to stand the test without being able to be consistent with scholarship--because it is your methodology that counts, not if what you say matches anyone else's.

  Critical analysis is a method that follows rules, and just like in sports or any other game, you are tested on how well you follow those rules, not if your views are consistent with another's.

  That is the way academia plays the game.
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  78

  How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  (revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

  ) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

  btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

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  PioneerSchmioneer

  "Argument from authority" or claiming your view is "based on sound scholarship" is not "sound scholarship."

  I used to tell my religion students this all the time, and it was the hardest habit to break for them--most never learned to do this.

  It is your methodology that proves your argument, not the scholars you cite or copy in your arguments. That is why you have to study well. If you can't or don't study how to research a subject according to sound and approved academic methods and principles, your conclusions cannot be tested by another indepent source and verified. You have to do the work yourself.

  Only when your view is independently verified by testing--not by whether you cited or copied the view of another scholar or academic (anyone can do that--even the Watchtower does it)--do we know you did your homework.

  Otherwise you are just a copycat.