Posts by PioneerSchmioneer

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

PioneerSchmioneer

I am a woman, the daughter of a Jewish mother, and a father who was Catholic who became a JW and left.

I was raised as all three. I left the Watchtower after being horribly abused by an elder--and no one came to my aid, and no one believed me. So I am used to being pre-judged by a mob of others who have the wrong opion of me. I am no stranger to that.

My words were directed solely towards Peacefulpete because Pete was talking about the subject of "Judas Iscariot," and how Judas was "invented" by means of "midrash." He did not stick to his guns and failed to make his case.

Peacefulpete could do nothing but "cut and paste" from other sources when discussing midrash--not explain it.

I could explain the process of midrash. Pete could only point to other names and sources--some of which said the exact same things I did if Pete only looked closer--which obviously Pete did not. It was horribly irritating.

In the end, Pete was just going in circles, using words to muddle the argument about "midrash."

I had talked to Peacefulpete on here several times on other threads, and it was the same thing. It is like a circus with Peacefulpete, a cut-and-paste fiasco. I am not talking about anyone else.

Don't cut-and-paste answers at me, Pete, when they have nothing to do with your original argument.

Don't jump around from subject to subject like JWs do in the field service when they can't win a debate.

And don't start making assumptions and spread gossip about someone behind their back when you don't know anything about them. You judge people in the Kingdom Hall for doing that about you when you left. And you do that to people when then want to leave here?! Goodness!

Grow up, Pete. Next time you meet somebody, stick to the subject at hand. Argue only a subject matter you have mastered. And don't try to prove your point by citing an authority. If you can't discuss a subject like midrash from memory, you don't know it. Don't cut and paste a Gentile at me. At least you should have cited a rabbinical authority.

Now, if you don't mind--I think I've deserved a reason to leave. If people jumped to conclusions about you in the same way, I am sure you wouldn't feel welcomed either, would you?

(And no, I am not going to be reading your comments from here onward.)

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

PioneerSchmioneer

You are just a nut who likes to use big words.

I went to 10 years of Hebrew school, 10 years of Christian religious studies on top of that.

I worked on one of the first new English translations of Tobit from the Dead Sea Scrolls.

I started my studies in Koine Greek beginning in 1984.

I was the editor for a nationally read religious magazine for two and a half years.

I am tired of dealing with armchair exJW scholars who think they know what they are talking about and just want the Bible to be wrong because they were WOUNDED by the Watchtower and are not brave enough to put the blame where it belongs--not on a book but on stupid men leading a cult.

Believe what you want. Go ahead. If it helps you to hear this: You're the expert.

Enjoy sounding smart to yourself.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

PioneerSchmioneer

Midrash is a form of Jewish exegesis, an ancient form of commentary on Scriptural text. The methodology started around the time of the school of Hillel the Elder, who was active around the end of the first century BCE and the beginning of the first century CE.

My mother is a Conservative Jew and I myself was educated in it, studying midrash for almost 10 years.

While the author of the gospel of Matthew employs midrash at Mt 1:22-23 and 1:15 (as in other places), it is a method of exegesis, not narrative. For instance, it is not midrash when Matthew claims Jesus fulfills another prophecy at 1:5-6. (Can you spot the difference between midrash and regular "prophecy" fulfillment--or are you just another Gentile using the term like a novelty?)

Midrash is not folklore or legend or mythology as it involves explaining what previously composed texts means (not composing new ones), commenting on them, and interpreting texts, sometimes via a play on words such as at Matthew 1:23.

There is an entire book of this method in the Talmud called "The Midrash" that employs this form. But one cannot create entire characters or storylines by means of it.

The term "midrash" is synonymous with "exegesis," and saying that the story elements of the gospels were created by means of exegesis or commentary is incorrect. You are misuing the term or just don't know what midrash is.

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

PioneerSchmioneer

Very interesting work.

Again, though not declaring any personal claim to Christianity myself, I find the "invention" of Judas Iscariot unnecessary.

The mythology of the gospels aside, the rabbi known as Jesus of Nazareth was destined to crucifixion, no matter what as the priesthood of the time had no sympathy for messianic pretenders that publically embrassed them while creating powerful movements consisting of sympathic followers. Rome likewise did not appreciate anyone calling themselves "king" in opposition to Caesar, and this self-proclaimed rabbi had might as well fashioned his own cross and asked his apostles to nail himself to it after congratulating Peter for identifying him the Messiah, King of the Jews.

Another character, like Judas Iscariot, handing him over as a betrayer is an invention? Unlikely. Judas is actually just the name "Jude," which was slightly changed so as not to confuse it with the name of the brother of Jesus who is also named Jude. (John 14:22) There is also the prophet named Judas Barsabbas mentioned in Acts 15:22-33.

Then, whether or not this is the same Judas as the "brother of Jesus" or someone merely writing in his name, the Epistle or Letter of Jude is actually written by someone named Judas--but since "Judas Iscariot" is supposedly the betrayer, Christians changed the name of the author to "Jude" to avoid confusion.

While I do know that the prophecies supposedly fulfilled by the betrayal of Judas Iscariot are merely midrash attributed after the fact, it is unlikely that someone with the same name of the "brother of Jesus" who helped to betray him to his death--an embrassing fact--is entirely invented. There would be no reason to change "Judas" to "Jude" in the title of the epistle, especially since scholars believe it is pseudonymous--and that would make no sense if we are talking about a character made up of tropes harvested from the Old Testament.

Why hide a "made up fact" you worked so hard to make up? You would want people to see what you worked so hard to make up, wouldn't you?

With or without Judas in the gospel narrative, Jesus of Nazareth always marches to his death. Why invent such a character with a name of the brother of the person who betrayed him--and then change the name of the innocent brother?

But it doesn't matter to me in the end.

29

Patterson New Visitor Centre & Museum Announced

by raymond frantz in

https://www.jwupdates.com/post/new-patterson-visitor-center-and-first-century-museum.

january 1, 2024, marked the official opening of the patterson visitor center, located at the watchtower educational center in patterson, new york, u.s.a. the feature museum of the visitors’ center is entitled “first-century bible village.” brother isaiah miller, who works in the museum department at bethel, said: “the bible village was designed to provide everyone with a realistic and educational experience.

studies show that interactive learning has a powerful effect on people of all ages.” after her tour, one visitor exclaimed: “this museum made me feel like i had been transported back to the land of ancient israel.

PioneerSchmioneer

I love it when Gentiles dress up "like Jews" and play "Israel" for other Gentiles in fake "Israel-Land" based on (and this is my favorite part) the New Testament.

23

Observations/Questions from forum newbie

by Obrien in

i joined about 5 days ago and have some observations/questions.. does anyone notice the profile update doesn't seem to work?

i like reading some of the profiles, most accounts don't have them and maybe that's because the tool doesn't function anymore?.

also i've been noticing a diverse number of subjects which made me think of the categories of people on here.

PioneerSchmioneer

LongHairGal,

I'm with you. It was exactly like that with me. I planned ahead of time--had my life outside worked out, planned, prepared, and just walked out one day from one world into the next.

Obrien,

I was not raised as a JW and did not get married while in the org--which I am so happy about. I have had a very successful career and education--but others in the organization were never happy with that...ever. So much was not lost--just about a decade of time.

I was stuck into it due to my family leaving me with an uncle and aunt after my family split apart, but once I was old enough and able to get on my own, and I was able to get on with things without the Watchtower.

I do feel for people who have had a far different situation from me as I cannot place myself into their shoes. I cannot imagine what it must be like. But I always remember something I was taught, that happiness and hope in life are never given, they are only taken. And that good things do happen, but only because optimism is a lifestyle, not a guarantee.

23

Observations/Questions from forum newbie

by Obrien in

i joined about 5 days ago and have some observations/questions.. does anyone notice the profile update doesn't seem to work?

i like reading some of the profiles, most accounts don't have them and maybe that's because the tool doesn't function anymore?.

also i've been noticing a diverse number of subjects which made me think of the categories of people on here.

PioneerSchmioneer

Not everyone goes through grief upon leaving because not everyone has the same connections or same experiences upon leaving.

I did not have a sad leaving. It was a very happy one for me.

78

How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

by BoogerMan in

(revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

PioneerSchmioneer

I don't have anything more to offer to you.

But what's more unhelpful? Discussing how to offer a critical analysis of the subject?

Or posting endlessly again and again in an argument with somebody when you could be providing that evidence you say you have that you could enlighten us with but you refuse to show?

78

How can Babylon the Great be the WORLD of false religion?

by BoogerMan in

(revelation 17:5) “babylon the great, the mother of the prostitutes (plural!

) and of the disgusting things of the earth.”.

btg is spotlighted as being the principal "disgusting thing" which affects christians & christianity, with other lesser "prostitutes" in the background... (revelation 18:4) “get out of her, my people, (christians) if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.".

PioneerSchmioneer

I have actually been part of this discussion from the earliest part. I have contributed much, beginning 4 days ago, stating how Babylon the Great could be Rome or Jerusalem, even making a list of how since from the very beginning, starting from the Church Fathers, Christians have used various ways of interpreting Revelation, including the:

Preterist View
Critical View
Idealist View
Historist View and
Futurist View.

I've answered other people's questions on this very thread afterwards. I wasn't just jumping on you. I've been following this subject since the beginning.

Or haven't you noticed?

Then it got to the point that two of you were going back and forth sticking your tongues out at each other like infants and, instead of offering anything worthwhile, just claiming the same thing: "My argument is based on sound scholarship."

But you didn't offer that scholarship. So I stepped in and posted what I did knowing that you were just angry, not thinking--just being emotional.

You are just mad because I pointed out that anyone can say what you did, like little school kids calling each other names. Your are mad that I called you out, and if your argument is really all that you say it is, where are all these scholars and academics that you say you have supporting you?

Instead of wasting your time calling me a troll, you could have typed out all the information to prove you're point.

But you have no point. You are just angry.

When you give a report, you have to cite your sources, you just can't say it is supported by scholars. Which scholars? What studies? Where can we find them? What books? What thesis? When was it published? Who wrote it?

It's called a "bibliography," and when you have a point, you support it, something like this:

At Acts 21:20, the author is merely stressing the phenomenal growth of Christianity among Jews because the Greek expression for "many thousands of believers" actually means myriads or tens of thousands, and according to the best scholarship we have, there was only about 1000-7000 Christians between 60-70 AD when this account supposedly happened (and not all of them were Jewish).--Bart Ehrman, Big Think: How Christianity Conquered Rome Through Simple Math, 7/23/2023.

That last part, the bold section, is the bibliography. The argument isn't based on the scholarship--it doesn't fall on just one report because there are others--but the person presenting the statement on the text in Acts presents their view, and a voice to help people to understand why they reach their conclusion.

Just saying your work is supported by scholars doesn't prove anything, however. And just because it has a scholar to back it up doesn't prove you are right. The use of a bibliography is when you quote or cite another's work in your method of reasoning. Your work still has to be tested. If the scholar is taken away, does the method of reasoning still stand? If it does, then the critical analysis is called a "theory," and it works. That is critical analytic theory.

If all you can do is quote scholars like "proof texts," you might as well quote the Bible as your authority, like the Watchtower. Quoting others is not proving you are a critical thinker. Being able to figure things out in the way an academic can by applying the methods they use--that is critical thinking.

There's a difference.

23

Observations/Questions from forum newbie

by Obrien in

i joined about 5 days ago and have some observations/questions.. does anyone notice the profile update doesn't seem to work?

i like reading some of the profiles, most accounts don't have them and maybe that's because the tool doesn't function anymore?.

also i've been noticing a diverse number of subjects which made me think of the categories of people on here.

PioneerSchmioneer

I'm with Vidiot.

Nothing against Obrien, but I don't fit into any of those new catagories. The other ones, already in use by JWs, explain who we are.

For instance, I am POMO, meaning Physically Out, Mentally Out.

It took some time for the exJW/PIMO community to work together to develop a lingo and to create these catagories.

Q stands for "questioning." I stands for "in."

We don't have a letter (yet) for describing someone who was never a JW as these letters are used to describe someone's personal experience for living through the Watchtower religion--and after use in common acceptable discussion in our vernacular.