1 Cor 11:19
19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.
pomegranate
JoinedPosts by pomegranate
-
-
-
pomegranate
-
-
-
pomegranate
>>Sorry, but I don't see how pointing out misapplied scriptures and out-of-context quotations constitutes "claiming expertise".<<
If you claim misapplication, then you know correct application. That would be expertise. Though I believe it is more like your PERSONAL OPINION as I don't see God sitting beside you.
>>Nor was the intent my personal exaltation.<<
That is your PERSONAL opinion. It is your PERSONAL exaltation. Because your words certainly are not from God.
>>What you have to understand is that a lot of JW's and those recently out of the JW's lurk here and read what is posted.<<
What makes you think I don't understand that, I am one who has left. I have the right to express my faith the way I believe without you being a "JW" saying I'm wrong, believe the way I believe. I'll let God judge me and my beliefs not you, got it?
>>When someone blatantly misrepresents scripture - as by citing only half of Romans 8:24, and ignoring the fact that the other half of the verse contradicts the argument you are using it to support - I feel an obligation to point it out.<<
I belive my personal understanding to be perfectly contextual and not misrepresented. You state your opinion about YOUR understanding, that is all.
To discuss your position again, if you are claiming saved status already, then you have no need for HOPE or waiting patiently for redemption, which Paul advises. Even Paul said this:
Rom 8:23-24
we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.If you are saved already, then you are ALREADY adopted as a son and your body has been already redeemed. Paul was STILL waiting for that while he was in the sinful flesh. Sorry friend, redeption can't happen UNTIL YOU SHED THE SINFUL FLESH either by death or the transformation in the end. That is how redemption works. You turn in one thing (corrupt fleshly body) and receive another (incorrupt spiritual body). Then your saved. Which is a HOPE until it happens. That's how I understand it. ME. MINE. THE WAY I BELIEVE IT.
Which is why I believe Paul said this, "For in thisHOPE (adoption and redemption, THE CONTEXT) we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all.
If you have redemption ALREADY and seen it (which even Paul didn't have while he was alive in the corrupt flesh), then there is NO MORE HOPE AT ALL.
Paul continues, "Who hopes for what he already has?
How can you hope to be saved if you have it already?
So, since you are saved already, you no longer have hope of being "saved", because you have it already. So, you have no hope of being saved, while folks like me, have hope of being saved. I wait for it. PATIENTLY
Paul says. "But if we hope for what we do not yet have [adoption and redemption, WHICH IS THE CONTEXT] and, we wait for it patiently.
Adoption and redemption is being saved. Of which, like Paul, while I am yet alive in the sinful body, do NOT have. I patiently hope and WAIT for, adoption, redemption and salvation.
That is FULLY contextual as I understand it. That is MY PERSONAL BELIEF.
>>I consider such misuse of scripture to be both dangerous and dishonest.<<
You are setting YOUR OWN STANDARD of OPINION for what is dangerous and dishonest and applying it to me. I am NOT telling anyone what to believe like you. I am stating what I believe for myself. If there is ANYONE dangerous here, it is a man judging others to be dangerous and dishonest by what they personally believe. Who the heck do you think you are? Christ Almighty?
>>No one is questioning your right to believe whatever you want to.<<
You most certainly are, and condemning it as DISHONEST MR. JUDGE SIR.
>>I do, however, question the appropriateness of claiming that your belief is biblical, when the very scriptures you are citing to support it in fact do not.<<
As I have done above, stated my belief IN CONTEXT with what Paul is saying as I UNDERSTAND IT. Paul's words assuredly support what I am saying, whether you PERSONALLY want to believe it or not. The way I understand it may not be the way you understand it, BUT THAT DOE NOT MAKE ME DISHONEST MR. JUDGE.
>>Actually, it was your arguments that I said were "twisted," not you personally.<<
A man IS what he believes, especially in relation to his beliefs in God.
>>I am not righteous; but Christ's righteousness is imparted to me as a free gift.<<
Prove that it was even given to you. You can't. It's just your mouth flapping. I always say if you can't prove what comes out of your mouth, then shut up and sit down.
>>I am well aware that there are scriptural arguments both ways on doctrines such as predestination and the security of the believer.<<
Oh yes. And the way you understand is the right Way huh? And the way I understand it is dishonest?
>>What got my knickers in a twist was not so much your position on these ideas as the fact that you were isung scripture dishonestly to support them.<<
Again, you impart me to be dishonest. If I am honestly portraying what I believe to be true, how is it I am being dishonest? Dishonest would mean I know what is true and am portraying just the opposite FULLY INTENTIONAL. That is a BLATANT INSULT friend, of which any man representing the true God would recognize and promptly apologize. If I am being honest in my beliefs and you have intentionally portrayed me as dishonest in my beliefs, are you still saved?
>>I would also claim verse 13 as my own. I'm nothing special, just a sinner like anyone else.<<
If you're saved already, then why do you need God's mercy? Mercy would only be needed for those NOT SAVED, like me. So you don't need God's mercy and you no longer have any hope. I don't get it.
Also, it seems to me according to the Bible, that once one is born again and saved like yourself, they no longer go on sinning. Yet you say you are still a sinner. How does that work?
1 John 3:9
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.The context is quite EASY and obvious on this text so don't play the "out of context card." If you're still sinning like you just admitted, then you cannot born again yet right? Do you do everything RIGHT?
>>But I claim the promises that Christ made that my sins are forgiven. You need to read verse 14, too. It says that the publican "went home justified before God". Because of his sincere repentance, his sins were forgiven. Yours can be, too, and you can know that they are.<<I would never be so presumptous.
>>If I read this scripture the way that you are asking me to, it would imply that we can't know anything at all, wouldn't it?<<
First, I did not ask you to read it in ANY way at all. You have made an inappropriate assumption.
Now you have TOTALLY missed the context. It applies to BOTH of us. We both know nothing because we THINK we know something. I love God, and He knows me.
>>Frankly, you lost my respect when you mishandled the word of God.<<
You can't lose what you never had, and you never had respect for me. In order to respect me, you would need to know me. You don't know me so you never respected me. Handling God's Word aright is going to be a judgment call made by HIM not you. You show yourself to be arrogant and self righteous when you speak such personal opinion as the right way.
>>I have no problem with people disagreeing with me about doctrine. I may argue the point with them, but I'll do so respectfully.<<
First, I don't believe calling someone dishonest shows the least amount of respect. As a matter of fact, I'd call it arrogant, rude and nothing that anyone truly representing the true God would do.
>>But I will not be respectful when someone dishonestly misrepresents scripture;<<
I believe you may have just pulled down your un-Christian pants and exposed yourself:
1 Peter 2:17
17 Show proper respect to everyone:1 Peter 3:15
But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,A true follower of God would respect everyone, because they are in no position to judge ANYTHING in regard to the health and honesty of another man's heart.
>>that is a grave sin, and I will oppose it vigorously.<<
My grave sin?? You can judge another man's grave sin? You can judge the honesty of another's heart?
With all due respect to you sir: May God be your judge and have mercy on your soul, as I will never judge you.
good evening.
Edited by - pomegranate on 3 September 2002 23:16:13
-
-
-
pomegranate
Surely you have claimed your expertise. If you know you are right and that I am wrong, you have exercised your expertise by raising yourself up and putting me down. I stand by my beliefs as I understand them from the Bible. I neither force anyone to believe them, nor do I condemn anyone else's beliefs. You are both forcing me to believe what you believe by your condemnation, and condemn my beliefs of which I rest MY FAITH ON.
In Christ, you can surely disagree with me. But, it will be Christ to justify each and every man or not.
As far as who is "twisted", you make the judgment that it is I. You are the one that will have to live by that judgment. I neither judge you, nor myself. By your claiming saved staus ALREADY, you have judged yourself already righteous. You judge me and you judge yourself. You also will answer for that judgment.
I will not judge my own saved status, I will wait for Christ to do that.
I like to look at two men in the Bible when viewing my OWN status in relation to God:
Luke 18:9-14
9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men-robbers, evildoers, adulterers-or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
(from New International Version)I claim verse 13 as my own. You?
I'd like to close with one more out of context scripture if I may:
1 Cor 8:2,3
2 The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But the man who loves God is known by God.edited for PS
PS. You can have the last word.
Edited by - pomegranate on 3 September 2002 17:14:0
-
-
-
pomegranate
Teach me oh chosen and saved one. Enlighten me with your vast wisdom and expertise in God's word...
-
-
-
pomegranate
What do you do to become chosen and saved by God?
-
-
-
pomegranate
Show us all how it's done oh chosen one.
-
-
-
pomegranate
The context of Life:
"If it is the Lord's will, we will live
-
25
Why the Memorial?
by professor inwhy is it that everyone and his cousin shows up for the memorial?
what is it about this meeting that makes people come out of the woodwork?
is it like going to church on easter and christmas or something?
-
-
pomegranate
works
-
-
-
pomegranate
That's my opinion, anyway.
Yes it is.
-
-
-
pomegranate
petespal2002 condemns another man to "hell?"
I speak what I believe to be true and that justifies HIS condemnation? If I have condemned another, show me please. If not, I believe it may be you that has maybe put his life on the line by your own words of condemnation?
Matt 12:37
37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
Luke 6:37
"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."1 Cor 4:3-5
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. 4 My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.