before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
Ponder on this:
John 1:3
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
The above eliminates Christ from being made. Because, nothing was made without him. The Father could NOT have made Christ by Himself because that would mean something WAS made without Christ. The Father would have made Christ without Christ. Christ certainly is SOMETHING.
If the Father made Christ, he violated John 1:3.
NOT!
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
John 1:1 simply means Christ was NOT created as he was/is God as the Father was/is God.
The rest of what you wrote I agree with.
i thought this was a very good website for.
bible information/research.
quester.
Gal 3:23-25
24 Therefore THE LAW was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor (THE LAW).
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
If you noticed Christ was #77. What is even more profound are the two generational patterns BEFORE Christ.
63 Mattathias
64 Maath
65 Naggai
66 Esli
67 Nahum
68 Amos
69 Mattathias
70 Joseph
71 Jannai
72 Melki
73 Levi
74 Matthat
75 Heli
76 Joseph
77 JESUS
2 Mattathias spaced 7 generations apart. Immediately following that, are 2 Josephs spaced 7 generations apart. 2 and 7. There are 27 books in the NT.
77 = two sevens, 2 7's
2 = Father and Son
7= Holy/clean
27
The OT has 39 books. If you multiply the number of OT books as a seperated number, 3x9 = 27 (The number of the NT books)
If you add the number of OT books as a seperated number, 3+9=12 (The difference between the OT and NT book counts)
39-27=12
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
Ever lay out Matthew's lineage leading to Christ numerically? Look at what number Christ is...
1 God
2 Adam
3 Seth
4 Enosh
5 Kenan
6 Mahalalel
7 Jared
8 Enoch
9 Methuselah
10 Lamech
11 Noah
12 Shem
13 Arphaxad
14 Cainan
15 Shelah
16 Eber
17 Peleg
18 Reu
19 Serug
20 Nahor
21 Terah
22 Abraham
23 Isaac
24 Jacob
25 Judah
26 Perez
27 Hezron
28 Ram
29 Amminadab
30 Nahshon
31 Salmon
32 Boaz
33 Obed
34 Jesse
35 David
36 Nathan
37 Mattatha
38 Menna
39 Melea
40 Eliakim
41 Jonam
42 Joseph
43 Judah
44 Simeon
45 Levi
46 Matthat
47 Jorim
48 Eliezer
49 Joshua
50 Er
51 Elmadam
52 Cosam
53 Addi
54 Melki
55 Neri
56 Shealtiel
57 Zerubbabel
58 Rhesa
59 Joanan
60 Joda
61 Josech
62 Semein
63 Mattathias
64 Maath
65 Naggai
66 Esli
67 Nahum
68 Amos
69 Mattathias
70 Joseph
71 Jannai
72 Melki
73 Levi
74 Matthat
75 Heli
76 Joseph
77 JESUS
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
>>You have taken your opinion, that the Spirit is the Father and the Son, and then tried to make the Bible fit your doctrine of the "twinity."<<
Be careful you don't blaspheme God's true nature. You stand at blaspemy's door step. He has spoken his true nature in so many different ways because texts as plain as "I and the Father are one" would be ignored and not believed as teaching the plain TWO-th by the trinitarians and the arians.
The Bible has 66 books. (twin sixes) (Which is divided in two, one side greater in size than the other)
The Song of Solomon is the 22nd book. (twin two's)
It has 8 chapters. Divide that in two, we come to chapter 4. Look at verse number 2. Read it for yourself:
Song 4:2
2 Your teeth are like a flock of sheep just shorn,
coming up from the washing.
Each has its twin;
not one of them is alone.
Two. Twins. You mock the principle of God's existence. "Each has it's twin" because that's the way God exists. In TWO. You are a left and right created so by the image and likeness of the nature of the true God.
Still, people like you would still scoff. When God says something twice, you better listen. So he says the exact same thing TWICE. Go up TWO chapters to chapter 6. Go to where the chapter number and verse number become twins 6:6, read it for yourself professor of the triune lie:
Song 6:6
6 Your teeth are like a flock of sheep
coming up from the washing.
Each has its twin,
not one of them is alone.
My eternal life is dependent on only TWO, NOT THREE:
John 17:3-4
3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I'm told to only honor TWO, NOT THREE:
John 5:23
23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
>>(BTW, have you ever found any place in the Bible where He's called the Spirit of the Father?)<<
John 4:23-24
23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit <Christ speaking of the Father>, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Romans 8:11 ...and if the Spirit of him <the Father> who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, <obviously the spirit of the Father>
The above IS the spirit of the Father. Can you comprehend what you read? Or are you fully dependent on your man made system of "hermeneutics" and passed down traditional lies? Tsk tsk.
>>C'mon, dude, gimme a break.<<
Ask God for the break, not me. Because He will break to pieces the menage au trois god.
Oh, do you want to see where the Bible records the infant false god of triunity? God placed it right in the beginning where it first raised it's ugly head. Genesis CHAPTER 3:
Satan, Eve, Adam.
Even lies come in two's: God is singular...God is triune.
God is two.
Father and Son.
Rev 21:22
22 I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
Two.
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
>>Have you considered Matt.12:31? “Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.”<<
The above is Christ talking to the Pharisees. They were saying Christ's power to expel demons was directly from Satan (Beelzebub). Jesus called them out to their lies. They KNEW who Jesus was. The fact is, Christ's power came from the Holy Spirit Father. Calling the true Father God in heaven "Satan" IS blasphemy against the Holy Spirit Father. It was willful, it was intentional, they will NOT be forgiven.
>>Or Acts 5:3? “…Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…?”<<
The Holy Spirit above is Jesus Christ and the Father. "Holy Spirit" is the generalized way to refer to either the Father, the Son or both. Of course THEY can be lied to.
>>Or Ephesians 4:30? “Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God…”<<
The above is both the Holy Spirit Father and Son. Of course THEY can be grieved.
>>Or 1 Thessalonians 5:19? “Do not quench the Spirit."<<
The above is the POWER of God. Read the context;
1 Thess 5:19-22
19 Do not put out the Spirit's fire; 20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good.
The Father and Son ARE the Holy Spirit.
If you sin (BLASPHEMY) against the Father, you've sinned against the Spirit. Willful blasphemy will not be forgiven.
If you sin (BLASPHEMY) against the Son after his resurrection back to Divine existence, you've sinned against the Spirit. Willful blasphemy will not be forgiven.
King of willful blasphemers: Satan the Devil. He will not be forgiven.
Now, defining this "Spirit of God."
Rom 8:9-11
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
Paul now defines WHO EXACTLY that very Spirit of God is:
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 AND if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
Spirit of Christ + Spirit of the Father who raised Christ = The Holy Spirit
That is your Holy Spirit.
I and the Father are one.
There is no third.
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
jdubla,
I am part of no religion...I will never be part of any "religion" ever again. As the saying goes, "fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me." I won't be fooled again.
I do get together with fellow Bible/God enthusiasts in this spirit:
Matt 18:20
20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
That is as large as my "religion" will ever be.
The real truth will be logical and not contradict the Bible. Both Arianism and trinitarianism have major contradictions when reading the Bible. I will not try and force someone's elses passed down understanding on top of what the Bible says plainly by itself.
Duotheism does not contradict. It is what is the basic simple truth of ALL creation to me.
The two become one flesh.
I and the Father are one.
Two compartments in one tent/temple.
The theme of two is a blatantly over looked truth in the Bible.
Rom 1:19-20
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and DIVINE NATURE-have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
God's invisible qualities have been made PLAIN. Clearly seen. Men are without excuse.
Look in the mirror. The image and likeness of God.
Two.
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
Hi jdubla...
To answer some of your questions on how I understand the Creator:
>>im wondering though with that comparison, how do you distiguish who came first? i mean, adam came BEFORE eve, correct? does this mean then that god the father came BEFORE god the son, or jesus?<<
I believe that man was created in this sequence, with a delay between the male and the female NOT to show a seeming image and likeness of who came first in God (Father and Son), but rather to emphasize for us that "one" is incomplete in creating LIFE. Though by himself Adam was self sufficient, there were things about the male that needed a "match" or a complement, and certainly so if the man was to reproduce himself as was the purpose of man from the beginning, a created being that could create life as could only God.
We have to remember, that BOTH the man and the woman were FULLY in the mind of God when He created just the man, obviously by what God put between the man's legs. As far as God was concerned, she already was alive. To me, it seems more to paint a picture of; nothing is complete without two. The two are of the EXACT same stuff as the one. The two came apart, then the two reunite and become one. This is really beautiful stuff I think. As is God, as is man.
I believe also, that a woman carrying a child is an intentional depiction of what God "looked like" to spirit creatures as they came into existence. They only knew God as one spiritual mass. A single entity with one voice. Seemingly, one God being to their spiritual eyes. But in fact this one mass was two beings in one spiritual body.
I believe we are going to find out that the Father is silent while the Son is the Words. The Father is greater, then the Son is lesser. The Father is the Alpha, the Son the Omega. The Father CANNOT condescend, the Son is the condescending one. All these good complementary opposites are in God as are in us.
BUT, if the Father chooses to have someone sit at his right hand, shoulder to shoulder, it is the Father ALONE who demands that He wants two Alpha's for a time. If He says Christ may be the Alpha for a day, it is what God wills, and shall be so. The will of God shall be.
>>how do you personally tackle the "begotten" issue? im sure youre aware the word begotten refers directly to being "created", and we all know jesus is begotten of god, yet you do not believe jesus to have been created. is it just as easy as saying when he went down to earth and took human form, at this point he was "begotten" or "created"?<<
The word begotten has a lot of lateral understanding. Certainly, begotten could also mean the simple decision on the Father's part from a present tense united spirit body of God, to divide in two. Here's the dictionary:
be·get
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce
Notice the definition carries the terms to occur or produce.
Also, suppose it was by the Father's will and power to divide the spirit body for which the Son could exist in while apart from the united body of God Love that previously from eternity bound their spiritual bodies together.
Also, the term ONLY BEGOTTEN would further emphasize what happened to Christ was unique to him.
Isa 9:6
6 For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
The above cannot be said unless it is true. I believe it is.
We have two "Fathers."
before i get started, my name is mark whitmore, 20, i live in vancouver, canada, and i am a follower of the way, a true christian, not a jw.
if you reply, please post who you are, how old and what you believe so that i know where you are coming from.
thanks.. now down to business.. strongs' hebrew and greek online:.
BB,
I'm twice as old as you, plus two.
42, male, outside Boston. Belief? God and the Bible.
>>>Pomegranate, do you think that you could expand on what you believe? I have never heard that point of view and find it interesting to listen to.<<<
In order to do that, we need to go back to BEFORE the beginning of physical creation. We need to reason on the start of all things from the spiritual side of the curtain, because that is where the problem began.
I would start here:
There was God in heaven, and legions of created spiritual creatures with Him, and everything was GOOD. It will be highly important to understand the circumstances at this point in time accurately, because this is the foundation for everything to follow.
From here, I would start introducing questions and premises on what likely happened prior to Genesis 1:1, just from logical reasoning.
Remember, there is presently NO REBELLION in heaven...OK??
The first question I would ask myself is this:
Was God OMNISCIENT (All knowing) at this point in time BEFORE Satan rebelled?
I have to say to myself NO absolutely NOT for two logical reasons, God and Satan. THEY are the two reasons you ask?? Well, yes. Let's start with reasoning on the God angle. I will only use one thought pattern here, but there are more to help prove that God would not have KNOWN evil before Satanic rebellion.
IF God were omniscient at this point in time (before Satan's rebellion), that would mean He knew Satan was going to be evil BEFORE Satan in fact was evil. If that is true (God's omniscience), then that would also mean that God knew Satan was going to be evil even BEFORE God created Satan's life form. If that is true (God's omniscience), then that means the source of all evil is DIRCETLY from inside God HIMSELF, meaning God "knew" evil BEFORE it existed, meaning He is the Creator of evil and created evil into existence by forming the life of Satan. BUT....Scripture says this regarding any "evil/darkness" in God:
1 John 1:5-6
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
To me, it seems quite evident from this pattern of reasoning, that God was NOT omniscient BEFORE Satan left the way of Love, because if He was, God is Evil Himself. People who have faith in God know NOTHING evil was in or came out of God. If that is an accepted belief of ones faith, then they also have to reason that God was not omniscient before Satanic rebellion.
Now, Satan's side:
I'm NOT stupid. Neither is Satan. With that in mind, how stupid would someone have to be to rebell against A God that was omniscient. I mean, how can ANYONE even for the slightest split second think they could supercede God's will with their own will if God already had them out smarted and out thought to the point of already having the rebel "six feet under?" I'm no where near the intellectual capacity of an angel, but I feel it's a no brainer that if Satan knew the power, he would have still been washing God's floors.
So, from boths sides PRIOR to the rebellion, this line of reasoning to me points to a time that God was NOT omniscient, and God knew not the even conceptualized SMALLEST SEED of evil. There was NO SUCH THING AS EVIL in God's "mind" nor did He have the slightest seed of a hint that a being that He would create, would be responsible for the concept and creation of evil at a future time. Basically, it is something God could NOT even understand, UNTIL it hit Him smack dab in the face.
I believe one has to understand this basic scenario before building further understanding. We have to realize that evil does NOT have it's source in God. In order for that to be true, God could NOT have forknown it, which means before Satan, he was not Omniscient. As you reason on omniscience more, I think you will find omniscience is a power God created as a defense mechanism against the evil that was created by Satan. When there is all good and no bad, no omniscience. When there is both Good and bad, omniscience is one of the tools God created to GUARANTEE his will be done and Satan's will be thwarted.
OK. Reason on the above. Questions? Ask em. Comments? Say em. You want me to go on? Let me know.
PS. Maybe you wanna start a new thread on this?
