Posts by pomegranate

Interesting. Where'd the humongous incomprehensible power source come from to Big Bang everything into existance? A cosmic match and dynomite? Kewl. Who lite the match and made the dynomite? Then you're going to tell me that out of this horrific cataclysmic blast, that the intricate movement of the rotational characteristics of solar systems, galaxies and and other interstellar bodies just happened with such predictable precision?

about evolution: first of all one should distinguish between the formation of the first self replicating system and then of what evolution is actually all about.

I do not understand what you just said.

evolution deals with the formation of new species from a common ancestor. there is an infinite number of facts that support this...therefore evolution is not in discussion.

Evolution deals with the start/origin of life from the minutest to the grandest. Which would mean the formation of what would be considered the first species, which would have to be at the molecular level.

how the first relicating system formed is not clear yet...some steps have been simulated in the lab but certainly not all.

I'm a pretty book bound kind of guy, show me the research you talk about regarding the above.

so what exactly would you like to calculate? the probability of the formation of a self replicating system?

The probability of one of the earliest building blocks of life (protein) spontaneously coming together by chance out of a primordial soup consisting of a the fluidic atomic components adhered together into amino acids consisting of both left and right handed variety, with left and right varieties being in number at equalibrium. What are the mathematical probabilities of these units forming the peptide bonds to make a single protein for the smallest theoretical model of a free living organism.

Edited by - pomegranate on 12 October 2002 13:10:52

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

Pom siad: Out of every single discipline of the sciences that freely uses probability mathematics to bring order by average out of the seemingly chaotic, only evolution is to be excused from the scrutinous eye of the Law of numbers?

You ask: Did I say that?

No I said that. You said this:

the futility of using probability arguments about something as complicated as evolution

You claim probability mathematics to be futile against the complications of evolution. Poppycock. That's exactly what probability mathematics is for. Things complicated. Yet you want to excuse the complications of evolution from mathematics. That can't be done by an honest researcher. Probabilites are a reality in all disciplines of science, because of complications.

The fact is that no one can prove whether God exists or not.

Fact is, I'm not out to prove God exists, I'm out to question evolutions validity by way of accpeted scientific analysis, which probability mathematics is one valid method.

Assuming you were once a JW, like most of us on this board, you have not left off this most distinguishing characteristic of a cultist.

What would that be? Believing in God? I think you know not the definition of cult.

But when challenged, they, like you in this thread, avoid direct, clear argument.

It seems to me I'm presenting clear scientific arguement. It is you that has nothing but opinion behind your statements. Stick to the science can you?

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

Interesting smoke screen.

Out of every single discipline of the sciences that freely uses probability mathematics to bring order by average out of the seemingly chaotic, only evolution is to be excused from the scrutinous eye of the Law of numbers?

And your reason why is because I believe God can create something out of nothing?

Whatever.

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

but when we try to cross-over with hard science math to chaotic biology

I believe that is wrong. Quantum mechanic scientists use probability laws all the time on the atom. Why? They found that electrons and other elementary particles behave in ways that seemed unpredictable in some respects. It was found that the statistical laws of probability could be used to average out these individual random motions. This brought order out of the confusion and made the behavior predictable on the average.

So, since BIOLOGY is made of of the same stuff that quantum scientsts had problems predicting, ATOMS, it does have equal value in predicting biological estimations.

There is NO science that the laws of probabilty are not used for. From life insurance policies, rocket orbits to traffic lights, probability law is used and relied on. Even in my biology classes.

Edited by - pomegranate on 12 October 2002 10:39:21

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

So the calculation goes that the probability of forming a given 300 amino acid long protein (say an enzyme like carboxypeptidase) randomly is (1/20) 300 or 1 chance in 2.04 x 10 390 , which is astoundingly, mind-beggaringly improbable.

The above is incorrect. The number is supposed to be 2 300.

The randon formation of this 300 amino acid long protein has been inaccurately portrayed by confusing the 20 proteins in life as the frational multiplier (1/20) to the number of aminos in this chain.

The probability of it's formation is in the random chance choosing of Left handed aminos over right handed aminos. Proteins are built with only left handed aminos. That's a one out of two chance for all 300.

So in the chain of three hundred aminos, there is a 1/2 chance of getting the left handed unit correct for each amino in the chain. So that would be 2x2x2x2x2x2...done 300 times or 2 300.

So, there is a big problem with this paper right from the start.

Firstly, the formation of biological polymers from monomers is a function of the laws of chemistry and biochemistry, and these are decidedly not random

Well, where we are at now in this point of evolution, there IS NO biochemistry, because there is no LIFE (Bio) yet. We just have aminos flaoting in the soup. Biochemistry means LIFE chemistry, of which in the soup, there is NO LIFE YET, so there is no biochemistry yet.

This man also makes an interesting point, LAWS of CHEMISTRY. So, who wrote the LAWS for chemicals ie ionic and covalent bonds? Atoms digging the number 8 for the outer valence of electron orbits? Not only that, where did the chemicals come from? I have yet to hear of the evolutionists hypothesis for the atomic evolution, never mind bio evolution.

Where did all the periodic elements come from? Did they evolve too?

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

Frank, I can't prove anything, but probability numbers can tell a lot. They are extensively used all over the sciences and are relied upon quite frequently as a foundational tool for proceeding through something by way of examining the statistical odds.

Just wondering if anyone has ever applied themselves to do it...

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

I'm talking on your own...

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

Frank, numbers don't lie. Especially in the nitch of probabilty.

Statistical analysis by way of commonly used and verified probability formulas can be done quite logically and applied to the evolutionary event.

Has anyone seriously looked at the theory under the magnification of mathematical probability?

145

Analyzing evolution through Laws of Probability

by pomegranate in

jw
friends

any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?

pomegranate

Any of you evolutionists ever crunch the numbers?