these are just some of the things i was told studying with the witnesses in 1959 .in 1960 we got married in one of the few kh`s that existed in melb.at the time .and we were required to pay/contribute to the bro.who conducted the service.. i was led to beleive in my studys that smoking was a no,no ,so i gave up ,learning later that wasnt the case ,the ministerial servant book study conductor in our group still did smoke.
( the ban on smoking didnt come in till later on ).
while they may not have passed the collection plate around , they did on a regular time frame appeal for donations from the platform for funds to offset the renting of a hall , my first congregation , or the upkeep /maintenance of a kh or for the"world wide work of witnessing" .
Phizzy:
They are "the most educated people in the World" Oh boy, the Irony of that one !
mP:
Well they are the most educated people in the world in bullshit watchtower lies. in typical wt style they twist and lie or leave out important facts in their statemetns.
i like jwfact's http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php.
it would probably be interesting to add the information found in this article:.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/the-staurogram/.
written by bart
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bart-d-ehrman/did-jesus-exist_b_1349544.html
Moreover, we have relatively extensive writings from one first-century author, Paul, who acquired his information within a couple of years of Jesus' life and who actually knew, first hand, Jesus' closest disciple Peter and his own brother James. If Jesus did not exist, you would think his brother would know it.
MP:
Do a scan for jesus in pauls writings and right down the facts you find using some online tool. your list will be almost nothing. You wont find the words, mary, bethlehem, pilate, apostles, miracles, gethsemane and so on in any pauline text real or fraudulent.
Why doesnt Bart quote Paul on any of these mundane facts in the book. He cant quote him because theres nothing to quote.
i like jwfact's http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php.
it would probably be interesting to add the information found in this article:.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/the-staurogram/.
coma:
His only point is that Jesus did exist contrary to people saying he is a made up fake person completely.
mP:
I read it.
Also look at Pauls writings a so called comtemporary. he should be a super source, but he knows nothing of jesus the man. bart never comments on why paul knows nothing about jesus life, ministry, death, trial, bethlehem, etc.
How can someone write a book about jesus existance and never quote or discuss paul's knowledge or lack thereof ?
i like jwfact's http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php.
it would probably be interesting to add the information found in this article:.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/the-staurogram/.
Coma:
did you read the book?
mP;
yes.
Coma:
He just thinks there is enough evidence to show a man matching Jesus leadership and followers lived.
mP:
And thats exactly the problem, he tells you he existed, his light on the evidence.
Coma:
From that stand poi t it wouldn't matter if Nazareth existed or not.
MP:
Of course it matters. If j existed, then its not asking too miuch to get his birthplace right ? If the author cant even get that right just how much do they know ? If i wrote a book about George Washington and said he came from china would you bother to read the rest ?
Matthew 2:23 it says "And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene."
Shouldnt the author know the difference ?
i like jwfact's http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php.
it would probably be interesting to add the information found in this article:.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/the-staurogram/.
Slimboy:
I thought he made a good point about the multiple sources that make up the gospels.
Agreement on the existence of Jesus seems to be pretty unanimous among actual academics in biblical studies.
mP:
Well lets start at the beginning, and talk about Nazareth. There is no proof for N even existing when jesus was supposedly born. This is not a given, even the gospels get mixed up with this, sometimes its jesus the nazarene and sometimes its from nazareth. Nazarene is a type of monk and something quite different.
nazareth is never mentioned by josephus even though he mentions 60 odd towns in and about gallilee. N is also never mentioned in the OT.
Bart never discusses or attempts to demonstrate N existed. if it existed then it should be easy to prove beoynd doubt in a simple manner.
Search the reviews for the book on amazon for more discussion on scholars with differing views.
reza aslan (author of "zealot: the life and times of jesus of nazareth") makes a few points during an interview on 'the young turks' that really deserve their own thread.. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k .
his main point often missed by modern-day believers is that the writers of the gospels weren't even attempting to write an accurate historical account (which is a modern concept) but instead seeking to convey truths (truisms) via jesus' use of parables and the story of his life and death.
Rose
5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies , bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
mP:
Given the jews hated the Romans and were fighting against them, this sounds like a perfect thing for a Roman puppet master have jesus say.
Rose
something that is against the very cause Jesus stands for.
mP:
As i have shown, you have invented a loving jesus, he said lots of other disturbing things that are not quite as beautiful as you make out. If you examine everything jesus said theres one consistent theme. Everything he said was to help his roman masters. as y9ou have pointed out some other scriptures about slavery are contrary to loveable jesus but perfectly compatible with jesus the roman stooge.
i like jwfact's http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/cross-or-stake.php.
it would probably be interesting to add the information found in this article:.
http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/the-staurogram/.
slimboy:
Barts book is terrible, many other scholars say this. He spends far too much time arguing that scholars agree that jesus exists (aka authority) and little time actually providing proofs.
he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.
fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.
with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.
lost:
hahaha, good old cold, i believe in demons. ;/ i see demons, no really i do..
reza aslan (author of "zealot: the life and times of jesus of nazareth") makes a few points during an interview on 'the young turks' that really deserve their own thread.. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k .
his main point often missed by modern-day believers is that the writers of the gospels weren't even attempting to write an accurate historical account (which is a modern concept) but instead seeking to convey truths (truisms) via jesus' use of parables and the story of his life and death.
Phizzy:
I would suggest that you read about the bloody and violence and passion that many jewish people back then had against rome and the rest of the empire. If you thought muslims today particularly the suicide bombers and other fanatics were bad, they were nothing compared to the jews. Im not picking on them im just highlighting we today are generally quite soft compared to the ancients. they were passionate, cruel and often deadly.
Rome realised that religion was the motivator and the jewish religion with its hatred of gentiles, and belief in the separate kingdom and a messiah was a deadly mix that caused the violence i mentioned above. rome had to change this. One form of punishment was to destroy the temple and ban jews from judea for centuries. They even renamed it palestine.
he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.
fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.
with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.
Lost:
If your memory is so short that you forgot that you argued that a Josephus passage referred to someone else named Jesus—not the one Christians revere, but to false messiahs of the same name—and you were totally WRONG
mP:
The text clearly says jesus was the son of damneus within the same paragraph. There is nothing else in that paragraph that could not be someone else. there were many joshuas back then, because its a popular name and an approrpiate title for anyone wnating to be a leader.
You completely ignored and failed to comment on the father of jesus being wrong. Its really bad writing to refer to one character and then without qualifying the name being used tell us the father of another character with the same name. I dont think josephus was unskilled or uneducated. Its much easier to understand this jesus is someone else.
BTW: Good too see you do not attempt to quote or link or anything because if anybody reads the text its clear you are lying and wrong. You delibrately only present the first half of the paragraph because the entire chapter is about jesus the son of damneus who was a real person according to josephus.
Anyone can read the entire chapter, and see for themselves the jesus mentioned is never jesus son of god, and it makes no sense to talk and use his first name with qualification to refer to one characeter and then slip in a line about jesus of nazareth without letting the reader know its a different person.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Antiquities_of_the_Jews/Book_XX#Chapter_9
so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent. [24] Whereupon Albinus complied with what they said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest.
