The number seven strikes again! The WTS should tell all JWs to wear the number of "7" or at the very least say Raul or Cristiano are the messiah returned.
Posts by mP
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23Study WT June 2012 - we are living in the days of the 7th head!!!
by Sapphy inwell, it's officailly in print now.
the 10 toes of the statue have no significance.. that was worth going to last summer's covention to find out wasn't it!.
i'm fading and still attend some meetings, so i'm still fluent in current theocrapic pure language, but read this quote from the new wt and see if it doesnt scream freaky deaky cult at you.
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mP
What about Apollonius of Tyana who also lived in Tarsus at the very time Paul was alive. Apparently A of T, healed the sick, flew, and all sorts of miracles. He had quite a following. If fact if you compare Pauls and Apollonius travels it can be argued they are copies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana
Little is certainly known about him. Being a 1st-century orator and philosopher around the time of Christ , he was compared with Jesus of Nazareth by Christians in the 4th century [3] and by various popular writers in modern times.
In the 2nd century the satirist Lucian of Samosata was a sharp critic of Neo-Pythagoreanism. After 180 AD he wrote a pamphlet where he attacked Alexander of Abonoteichus , a student of one of Apollonius’ students, as a charlatan ; and suggested that the whole school was based on fraud . [29
Its funny how earlier in this thread and others the same names keep popping up. The same apologists who claim JC is genuine but if someone else does super human feats they mst be liars and frauds. Times change but people dont, epseically xian apologists.
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Someone has a list of scholars who believe in Jesus as a real person in history?
by TJ Curioso inwhen we say that most scholars believe in jesus as a real person, ask for real credentials.
who are these?.
someone has a list of those?.
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mP
Eusebius is a known liar, if he couldnt refute those he was addressing with facts he just made them up. He cannot be trusted, and he himself acknowledged that lying for the church was fine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesarea
In the 5th century, the Christian historian Socrates Scholasticus described Eusebius as writing for “rhetorical finish” and for the “praises of the Emperor” rather than the “accurate statement of facts.” [43] The methods of Eusebius were criticised by Edward Gibbon in the 18th century. [44] In the 19th century Jacob Burckhardt viewed Eusebius as 'a liar', the “first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.” [44] Ramsay MacMullen in the 20th century regarded Eusebius's work as representative of early Christian historical accounts in which “Hostile writings and discarded views were not recopied or passed on, or they were actively suppressed..., matters discreditable to the faith were to be consigned to silence.” [45] As a consequence this kind of methodology in MacMullens view has distorted modern attempts, (e.g. Harnack, Nock, and Brady), to describe how the Church grew in the early centuries. [46] Arnaldo Momigliano wrote that in Eusebius's mind "chronology was something between an exact science and an instrument of propaganda " [47] Drake in the 21st century treats Eusebius as working within the framework of a "totalizing discourse" that viewed the world from a single point of view that excluded anything he thought inappropriate. [48]
MP
Bolds are my highlights
If you believe the GB and FDS existed since the times of the Apostles, then Eusebius was defeinitely a worthy GB member.
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Someone has a list of scholars who believe in Jesus as a real person in history?
by TJ Curioso inwhen we say that most scholars believe in jesus as a real person, ask for real credentials.
who are these?.
someone has a list of those?.
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mP
@Leolaia
6) It is a modern-day myth that Constantine expunged certain books from the Bible. And it is odd to cite the Codex Sinaiticus (which has books not found in the present-day NT) as evidence in support of this since this codex is widely thought to be one of the fifty Bibles commissioned by Constantine.
MP
This is simply not true. There are at least 50 other gospels that the bishops commissioned by Constantine left out. We have cases in the NT where James and possibly Jesus quote the book of Enoch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch
The book is referred to, and quoted, in Jude 14-15 :
- "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these [men], saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
- Another probable Biblical reference can be found in I Peter 3:19-20 to En 21:6.
- The book of Enoch was omitted because it has some really weird things like the watchers (or angels) having sex with birds etc. It also says the nephalim were a mile high and other rediculous nonsense.
- http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm
People 450-Feet Tall?
Are you really gullible enough to believe that fallen angels had physical intimacy with earthly women that produced offspring 450-feet tall? I don't think so! We read in chapter 7:12-15 of the Book of Enoch...
7:12 Whose stature was each three hundred cubits. These devoured all which the labor of men produced; until it became impossible to feed them;
7:13 When they turned themselves against men , in order to devour them;
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I SAW GOD JEHOVAH AND JESUS (JEHOVAH'S WITNESS)
by mosesimon ini saw god {jehovah},after& like moses,i saw jesus,jesus & god coming soon visit my website www.mosessimon.org & know how can i saw god and jesus, god's message,miracles, about me, i am the eye witness how god is.
i am from chennai, india.keep in touch..know god's message.
....moses simon.g.
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mP
I see them both everyday, but only when its not cloudy. One can see Allah pretty much only at night time especially when its full moon. Ancient man was simply worshipping nature, we added the metaphysical, unseeable Gods.
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Jehovah's Witnesses Governing Body Annointed???
by mind blown inif the gb now admit their interpetations or writings (wt) is not spirit inspired ....(only admiting the early christians writings (bible was inspired)...how can they even believe they are of the annointed????
russel and friends believed they were of the annointed, and we know how their end time interpetation dates went......and later gb...."this generation" and 1914......1975...... interpetations ended.
watchtower: 23. march 1, 1979.
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mP
Everything the GB say is looney tunes, when you lie that much its hard to keep track of whats the truth. Obviously some forgot that they should be annoited to be a GB member.
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did the apostle paul really know jesus ?
by mP ini made a statement to tec, that paul did not know jesus.
in fact i challenge anyone to show from his writings, that he knew about the christ presented in the gospels.
i believe it is fair to say the lord or christ of paul is only mentioned as a spirit being who was ressurrected for us.
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mP
@Midget
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Johannine_works
Most modern scholars conclude that the apostle John wrote none of these works [4] although others, notably J.A.T. Robinson , F. F. Bruce , and Leon Morris , hold the apostle to be behind at least some, in particular the gospel. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] There may have been a single author for the gospel and the three epistles. [2] Some scholars conclude the author of the epistles was different from that of the gospel, although all four works probably originated from the same community. [15] The gospel and epistles traditionally and plausibly came from Ephesus , c. 90-110, although some scholars argue for an origin in Syria. [16] In the case of Revelation, many modern scholars agree that it was written by a separate author, John of Patmos , c. 95 with some parts possibly dating to Nero 's reign in the early 60s. [2] [17]
Do a little independent research and you will realise that the WT and other Bible believers are plain lying about the cohecision and connection to the apostles. The NT is full of frauds and fakes. Dont assume there was only John who wrote a book about religion.
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did the apostle paul really know jesus ?
by mP ini made a statement to tec, that paul did not know jesus.
in fact i challenge anyone to show from his writings, that he knew about the christ presented in the gospels.
i believe it is fair to say the lord or christ of paul is only mentioned as a spirit being who was ressurrected for us.
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mP
@Pono
I t doesn't matter if every "scholar" on the planet believes the Gospels were written after Paul's letter, they have absolutely no evidence to back up their claim.
MP
Which letter are we talking about ? Some of Pauls so called letters are thought not to be his, and from a much later period.
PONO:
When people make a claim that goes against logic and common sense, they need to present evidence to proove why there theory is right and the most likey scenario is wrong. The fact that Paul quotes Jesus and alludes to many of his teachings and the fact that there was 10s many even 100s of thousands of believers in Christ by the time Paul started writing his letters is more than sufficient proof for me to conclude that prior to Paul writing his letter there were documents containing Jesus' words and details about his life. If you have any real evidence to suggest that the Gospels were written after Paul's letters other than "the 'scholars' told me so", I would be more than happy to hear them.
MP
Where did Paul quote Jesus in any of his letters ?
What proof do you have there were thousands of hundreds of thousands of xians ? Most archeologists cannot find the churches that 100,000s would have necessitated.
Are we to also belive there were 100,000 xians by the time of Paul, 10-30 years after Christ died and none of them thoiught about writing a gospel ?
Surely they werent all illiterate!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria
Decree of Theodosius, destruction of the Serapeum in 391
Paganism was made illegal by an edict of the Emperor Theodosius I in 391. The holdings of the Great Library (both at the Mouseion and at the Serapeum) were on the precincts of pagan temples. While this had previously lent them a measure of protection, in the days of the Christian Roman Empire, whatever protection this had previously afforded them had ceased. [2] The temples of Alexandria were closed by Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria in AD 391. [29]
Socrates of Constantinople provides the following account of the destruction of the temples in Alexandria, in the fifth book of his Historia Ecclesiastica, written around 440:
At the solicitation of Theophilus, Bishop of Alexandria, the emperor issued an order at this time for the demolition of the heathen temples in that city; commanding also that it should be put in execution under the direction of Theophilus. Seizing this opportunity, Theophilus exerted himself to the utmost to expose the pagan mysteries to contempt. And to begin with, he caused the Mithreum to be cleaned out, and exhibited to public view the tokens of its bloody mysteries. Then he destroyed the Serapeum, and the bloody rites of the Mithreum he publicly caricatured; the Serapeum also he showed full of extravagant superstitions, and he had the phalli of Priapus carried through the midst of the forum. ... Thus this disturbance having been terminated, the governor of Alexandria, and the commander-in-chief of the troops in Egypt, assisted Theophilus in demolishing the heathen temples. — Socrates; Roberts, Alexander; Donaldson, James (1885), "Socrates: Book V: Chapter 16", in Philip Schaff et al., Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, II, II Thats right those honest xians burnt the greatest library in history as part of an effort to hide the true history of xianity. If you do your research you will see the same thing occured of many other religious writings particularly if they challenged the image and legacy of the church.
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did the apostle paul really know jesus ?
by mP ini made a statement to tec, that paul did not know jesus.
in fact i challenge anyone to show from his writings, that he knew about the christ presented in the gospels.
i believe it is fair to say the lord or christ of paul is only mentioned as a spirit being who was ressurrected for us.
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mP
Not all of Pauls letters are authenticate, in fact only half are considered genuine. This shows a high level of out right fraud in earlier Christianity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistles_of_Paul
The letters thought to be pseudepigraphic by the majority of modern scholars include: [4]
The letters on which modern scholars are about evenly divided are: [4]
An anonymous text that nearly all modern scholars agree was probably not written by Paul [citation needed] is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Timothy
The author of First Timothy has been traditionally identified as the Apostle Paul . He is named as the author of the letter in the text (1:1). In modern times, scholars have become divided over the issue of authenticity, with many suggesting that First Timothy , along with Second Timothy and Titus , are not original to Paul, but rather an unknown Christian writing some time in the late-first-to-mid-2nd century
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did the apostle paul really know jesus ?
by mP ini made a statement to tec, that paul did not know jesus.
in fact i challenge anyone to show from his writings, that he knew about the christ presented in the gospels.
i believe it is fair to say the lord or christ of paul is only mentioned as a spirit being who was ressurrected for us.
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mP
BandOnTheRun
It is clear to me that the apostles, the twelve, were not thrilled with his claims.
MP
The scriptures we have been reviewing only give 3 names, you are assuming the twelve were involved, they are never mentioned by name, as a group, or as in some other form like the apostles of Jesus or similar term. If you have a scripture that corrects my statement please show and quote.
Band:
it is easy to infer that they are the same James and Peter. All three were martyrs to the faith
MP
Im sorry we only know this because of tradition from the Catholic church. Do you honestly believe that Peter was in Rome and died on an upside down cross. Many frauds have been committed in prooving this tradition with evidence, like saying some bones found under teh vatican were those of Peter.
BAND
Tradition usually has some basis in fact.
MP
Church tradition also likes to stretch thte truth to proove itself. The classic example are relics, there are dozens of crucification crosses, hundreds of fingers of the apostles and so on.
BAND:
Do you suggest that Paul and the Twelve are completely unrealted. Was Paul talking about Jesus Smith and the apostle Jesus Doe?
MP
Jesus is also a title it means Saviour. There were many savior god religions, feel free to do a search. If we read the text with the word of "savior" you cannot just assume that means Jesus of Nazareth. You are completely ignoring others like Horus who was also a savior god. We could easily substitute Horus into the Paul story in Galatians. His own conversion itself was because the light or sun spoke to him.