Posts by proplog2

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

jgnat:

I want to comment on your bringing up one of my more speculative predictions. It is somewhat of a personal attack and is therefore a diversion from what we are discussing.

It is a way of saying SINCE Proplog2 has in times past made faulty predictions THEREFORE all of his comments about the Bible and Future events are faulty.

This is a false premise. It is irrelevant what I have said in the past. Just as it is irrelevant what the Watchtower has said in its past. It IS important to analyze what is currently being said by a person and evaluate their premises and conclusions.

The post I made (which you so kindly pulled up) - dealt with a specific convergence of somewhat significant events. My prediction failed. I don't consider that much different than a Doctors prognosis about the course of a disease. Or perhaps a weatherman's failed forecast. Doctors and Meteorologists don't lose their licences if they make a mistake. My mistake was not in the basic information (which we are discussing here) but in my intuitive leap based upon certain unfolding events. Kind of "cloudy with a chance of Armageddon". or "take two of these and wait for the Great Tribulation".

I believe its good to develop a strong interpretive base from which it is possible to view significant actions and actors on the world stage and Occasionally stick out your neck and make a prediction. I never have claimed divine guidance - I don't believe in God (guess I lose any potential audience right there).

I have yet to see anyone come up with a more coherent explanation for the endtime scenario than the one I have been talking about for 25 years. The preterist expanation is born dead. It is a Procrustes bed of failed attempts to fit events that were familiar to the original authors. The sole reason they (preterists) take this direction is that they refuse to believe in even the possibility that anyone could know the future. Yet the writers of Daniel and Revelation spoke about a future they didn't understand - and they referred to it as the "end".

You are entitled to your assumptions about the meaning of "time of the end". And you probably have a very good fit (not pefect) for those events. But for those who believe there is yet a "time of the end" (after all we ARE still here) I think I have a 99% fit. And I want to entertain challenges to my interpretation by those who believe we are in the "time of the end".

And there are stronger reasons for believing that Mankind IS facing a castastrophe. Ever since the coming of the Nuclear age it has become possible for a few people to make decisions that could lead the world into an abyss. All the advancements in science and culture could disappear into a dark age of nulcear destruction. I was born a month before Hiroshima. My generation has learned to "live" with this possibility. We even dare to just call it a "possibility" rather than an "inevitablity". Your choice of words is probably rooted in your temperament. But, history is on the side of the pessimist otherwise we would have solved this problem by now.

So go on ... poke fun. But there are at the very least- two joke lines going in this universe.

By the way. Do you think Putin is going to REALLY give up his power in 2008 when he is scheduled to step down and make way for a new president? Are you familiar with some of the more common tricks dictators use to make sure they stay in power? Do you remember how Putin came to power in the first place? Daniel 8:24

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

Heathen:

I dealt with the "spiritism" angle in my post #1240

4.) The spiritistic activities of BTG are believed by the Watchtower to be an absolute certification of the identity of BTG as a religious entity. However, in the case of Ninevah we have an example of a political whore described as a sorceress: Nahum 3:4

"owing to the abundance of prostitution...a mistress of sorceries...ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."

If you pick the USA as King of the North then you have no significant place for Russia. The largest country (geographically) on the face of the Earth and which also occupies the Northern Part of the World Island (Asia,Europe, Africa- all connected via land routes) is not something to be ignored. It also has thousands of nukes ready to launch primarily against the USA.

28

Would Jesus forgive Satan if he repented?

by DavidChristopher in

asked the elder conducting my book study today...he didn't know.

how about a little help here old buddy.. if no...then why continue to "preach the good news" to convince them to repent?

that would be a waste of time.. if yes?....who would he not forgive?.

proplog2

This is one of those incoherrent parts of the whole GOD scenario.

If there really were an all-powerful God that spirtis could know for zillions of years how could he even dare to think he could pull off a rebellion. He would have to really be stupid- an idiot. It is even more implausible that he would be able to persuade a substantial number of other spirits to join him. And why would they in turn follow and cooperate with the Devil? Wouldn't they pretty much have their own evil agenda?

If there IS a Devil than there cannot be an all-powerful God.

But - allowing the scenario given in the Bible - If Satan repented - he would cease to exist. He would no longer be Satan.

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

Star:

The choice has to fit. Terrorists are not governments. At best they may be sponsored by governements. You can't just pick the latest most popular ogre. They change from week to week. Iraq, Iran, North Korea, China, Islam have all been suggested as King of the North. You have to find the most significant fit.

Russia is the largest country in the World. 20% of its territory is north of the arctic circle.

Canada is the second largest country in the world. It also is north but it has very little ability to carry on an offensive war. It has no nuclear weapons.

North Korea is North of South Korea but it is too small to merit title King of Anything. It's nuclear arsenal is at most 10 weapons.

Russia on the other hand has over 7,000 active nuclear weapons and a stockpile of close to 16,000.

The USA has about 5,000 active nuclear weapons and a stockpile of around 10,000

Both the USA and Russia still have weapons aimed at each other and are on constant alert for possible attack. Both countries carry on war games with the other country as the target.

The key word in interpreting is "significance". You want to look for a "best fit".

Both Revelation and Daniel describe the end scene as involving two political entities. One is located in the North and the other is located South. The Southern entity tries to dominate the Northern entity by "pushing". Revelation describes the relationship between these two as a very rich entity dominating a beast like entity by "riding" it. The beast like entity has some fragility to it because it experiences a sword stroke that kills it - however it comes back from its death-like state. In both Revelation and Daniel the entity that seems to have the upper hand in the struggle is the one that ends up destroyed.

What are the odds here?

The odds for any event hapening are at best 50% If they are greater or less than that then you have to have some knowledge of the likelihood of an event happening. So basically any event can happen or NOT happen. You have a 25% chance of predicting any two events accurately. If you take just the events listed above you have 6 accurate predictions. You have a .0078 chance of doing that. In other words the Bible is not just a matter of good guessing. Actually I figure there are around 10 predictions about the end time scenario that are accurate.

Now just because a book accurately predicts events doesn't mean that it has to have the origin it claims. If someone has a power that is out of the range of human ability it only means that they are not human. It doesn't mean that they are God. It doesn't mean that they can't lie about their nature.

You may notice that there is a tendency for many to ridicule these interpretations. They may want to come up with an alternative besides just saying it was all fullfilled two thousand years ago. Obviously the key events connected to those interpretations never materialized - Armageddon, Resurrection, Christs Visible Coming.

20

Option Of Death Penalty For Molesters in Oklahoma

by Dogpatch in

committee oks bill giving juries option of death penalty for molesters

posted: 9:51 am cst february 22, 2006 updated: 6:21 pm cst february 22, 2006

oklahoma city -- oklahoma's senate judiciary committee has approved a bill that would give juries the option to sentence repeat child molesters to life without parole or even death.

proplog2

Ferret:

First you give her a sex change. And then you take it away.

20

Option Of Death Penalty For Molesters in Oklahoma

by Dogpatch in

committee oks bill giving juries option of death penalty for molesters

posted: 9:51 am cst february 22, 2006 updated: 6:21 pm cst february 22, 2006

oklahoma city -- oklahoma's senate judiciary committee has approved a bill that would give juries the option to sentence repeat child molesters to life without parole or even death.

proplog2

Wouldn't castration be more appropriate? That's the trouble with the death penalty - it keeps expanding its domain.

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

Sinis:

There is a strong parallel between Daniel & Revelation. The final conflict according to Daniel is between the King of the North and the King of the South. The showdown in Revelation is between a beast that is killed and resurrected and a Harlot that exercises hegemony over the earth and makes all those in the shipping business rich. The final struggle in Daniel leaves the King of the North as the winner only to be brought down by Michael the Great Prince.

Revelation describes the final battle AFTER the destruction of Babylon The Great at Rev. 19:19,20

"And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war with the one seated on the horse and with his army. And the wild beast was caught and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs... While still alive they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur." Daniel describes this scene also: Dan. 7:11 "I kept on beholding at that time because of the sound of the grandiose words that the horn was speaking. I kept on beholding until the beast was killed and its body was destroyed and it was given to the burning fire."

So is it just coincidental that we have homologues for these entitites today?

Daniel: King of the North destroys King of the South. King of the South seems to be in a position to push at the king of the North. The pushing escalates to the point where the King of the North acts to bring an end to the Souths provocations.

Revelation: Harlot sits on top of the wild beast. She attempts to ride it - thus control it. The beast gets tired of that and turns on her. Destroys her so that she goes up in smoke.

You don't have to explain everything that leads up to the climax. You merely have to look at the end and work your way back.

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

Sinnis:

I first realized that the USA was Babylon the Great back in 1980. The first crack in the structure was that World Trade didn't seem to be dependent on Religion. But I had trouble figuring out what the Wild Beast was that eventually destroys Babylon The Great. I struggled with the Watchtower interpretation that the seventh head was the anglo american world power that was wounded in First World War. Of course the events that have occurred since the late 1980's has clarified some things.

The Soviet Union completely disappeared in December 1991. This was a real death of an empire unlike the difficulties the Anglo American power suffered in World War I. The Watchtower even concluded that there no longer was a King of the North. I knew that this was significant. I have been watching events unfold in Russia ever since. The United States has tried to ride the Russian beast by moving NATO right up to its front door. The Harvard economists that advised Yeltsin ruined an orderly transition from central control of the economy to a market economy. Everyone thought they could ignore Russia because it was on its way to being a nice Demo(k)ratic Kapitalist Lamb. Under Putin it is clear that "freedom" and "democracy" are not high priorities.

The stage is set for the rest of the fullfilment of Revelation

22

"Neutrality" is Nonsense

by metatron in

jw
friends

i have observed some people drifting away from the watchtower who will acknowledge that most witness beliefs are false.. however, they may still cling to "neutrality" as a means of assuring themselves that "it's still the truth".

the witness idea of neutrality is naive.

as entire nations now mobilize for wars, the idea that you are somehow 'not part of it'.

proplog2

Metatron:

No one has ever died for me. I will defend my own SELF. I will kill my enemy when he is looking me dead in the eye. Or my enemy will kill me.

Unfortunately governments make enemies and then expect others to fight their battles.

At the point where governments threaten to lock you up if you don't fight their enemies - I think its time to consider who your real enemy is.

67

Who really is Babylon the Great?

by sinis in

i know the wts says it is false religion, but if you read daniel, jeremiah, and revelation it shows that babylon the great is actually ruling over the ten kings.

how can "false religion" rule over the kings of the earth?

it seems that babylon the great might actually portray a real government.

proplog2

This is the short argument against the Watchtower interpretation of Babylon the Great. (BTG)

1.) The Watchtower claims that Babylon the Great is the World Empire of False Religion (WEFR). Since the Bible never specifically says that BTG is a religious entity this is an extraordinary claim and as such requires extraordinary evidence. (Similar to the Trinity situation. Since the word Trinity is not used in the Bible then the doctrine would have to be extraordinarily explicit.) Not only is Babylon The Great not referred to as a religious entity the 18th chapter of Revelation is lacking even ordinary religious identifiers ie. altars, priests, sacrifice, idols, incense etc.

2.) The Watchtower uses a process of elimination argument as a key to uncovering the mystery of BTG's identity. Since the Kings of the Earth committed fornication with Babylon the Great the claim is advanced that she can't be a political entity. And since the Ship Captains and Traveling Merchants are mourning her destruction she can't be big business. While it is clearly the case that she is NOT of the class represented by Traveling Merchants it is not self-evident that she can't be of the same class represented by the Kings of the Earth. She is not of the same set as those with whom she has intercourse but she can be of the same class. As an example consider Michael the Archangel. Michael is in the same class as Seraphs and Cherubs. However, Michael, as the only Archangel, is in a separate set of the class called "angels". So Babylon the Great can be a political entity the same as all those with whom she fornicates. The thing that the Kings of the Earth have in common is that they have all fornicated with the entity identified as BTG. She in turn is in a set by herself. She is the only one that has fornicated with all the kings of the earth and she is also the only one who has an empire over all the kings of the earth.

This point becomes clearer when we read of the fornication of Tyre, clearly a political entity. Isaiah 23:17

"and she [Tyre] must ... commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth."

4.) The spiritistic activities of BTG are believed by the Watchtower to be an absolute certification of the identity of BTG as a religious entity. However, in the case of Ninevah we have an example of a political whore described as a sorceress: Nahum 3:4

"owing to the abundance of prostitution...a mistress of sorceries...ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries."

5.) Finally, the Watchtower makes remarks about how rich WEFR is. In the Babylon the Great book even referring to WEFR as "doubtless...the richest organization on earth today. There is no need to even ask for proof of this absurd conclusion. It is worse than naive it clearly void of any kind of thought. Religion, typically accounts for slightly less than 1% of the worlds economic activity. Hardly enough to cause wailing on the part of Ship Captains and Traveling merchants. What if you totaled up all the real property of the Worlds Religions. Then what? Should they sell it and tell people to hold onto their 1% contributions for a few years. Religion just isn't a big economic factor. If the Watchtower has some evidence to show that WEFR is a BIG enough factor to cause the Traveling Merchants and Ship Captains to mourn they haven't shared it with their readers.

6.) If the end is imminent then Babylon the Great should be at its peak. Revelation 18:7,8

"For in her heart she keeps saying, I sit a queen... that is why in one day her plagues will come."

Only a very rich political entity with a rate of consumption that would enrich all the worlds traveling merchants and ship captains could fit the role of BTG. Since we are "supposed" to be close to the end and since the USA is simultaneously the richest and most powerful entity on Earth, - exercising hegemony over all the kingdoms of the earth - then it is clear that we had better be watching for the time when God's people must literally flee the geographical territory of the USA/BTG.

So,it really isn't very complicated. JW's no doubt are emotionally attached to this Watchtower teaching in the same way some are attached to the Trinity. I know that to believe that BTG is the USA would require a major overhaul of Watchtower prophesy. I've done most of the work already. It can be proven:

Slaughtered head of beast at Rev 13 is USSR.
The two horned beast is a closer look at the revived head of the beast.
The Scarlet colored beast is not the UN but another look at the beast of Rev 13. It was, Is not (received deathstroke), yet IS (deathstroke healed)
The disgusting thing that causes desolation is not UN
The little Horn in Daniel is not the Anglo American world power but is the USSR.
The feet of clay and Iron is the USSR with its nationalities problem.
The successor to the Roman Empire is the Third Rome = Moscow or Russia and not Britain.
The King of the South is never heard from after the King of the North floods over because The USA/BTG is destroyed.