okay, i have been harping on this issue for some time.
i think i have this thing refined enough that i can communicate it succinctly.
i want as much feedback as possible.
Auld Soul:
Good question. Let me research it and I'll get back to you. NOT !!!!!
As you know JW's get cornered and promise to come back with an answer. If the answer can't be found in a Watchtower they just will never come back. They won't even write the Watchtower for an explanation because they are afraid of being marked.
There is no knock out punch. The points have to be added up after each round.
i don't often open up discussions on my beliefs or experiences in life, but i feel a need, so please excuse me if you feel it untoward.
neither is this a poxy swan-song, i'm just opening up my heart a little.. today i had cause to reflect on a conversation i had with my [now ex-]wife shortly after my epithany.
everything was so new and unknown.
Little Toe:
The alcoholic question. I appreciate your answering my question. It is a legitimate question and was not meant to put anyone down. LT, you have dealt with alcholics, and you know that some are so desperate for organization in their lives that they "get" an experience. I knew a sister who couldn't stop smoking. Suddenly she became annointed and stopped.
Conversion experiences even happen to scientists. A person may have been immersed into a particular paradigm for their whole scientific career. Sometimes they suddenly get the new paradigm and it changes their lives. Sometimes its wrong. I have known people to go through conversion from a conservative ideology to liberal ideology and vice versa. I have gone through many conversions in my life. Ideas can battle in the mind and body. When the conflict is resolved it seems like something that takes place suddenly. A tremendous amount of energy that has been tied up in self-fighting suddenly is released. Oftentimes the relaxation that follows causes tearing of the eyes. Sometimes the feeling merges into a very peacefull attitude or joyful. I believe everyone has these moments. If they are associated with thoughts of Christ then the tendency is to attribute the experience to Christ. This is an associative tendency that is a result of the way our minds have evolved.
This is no doubt the same as the Satori experience in Zen. If you are creative you are likely to experience this feeling many times in your life. Some very conventional people who have no toleration for ambiguity probably never experience this. But if you are a "searcher" and you are attracted to challenging dilemmas you are often going to find what you are looking for.
The knee-jerk antagonism to my comments suggests that many of you have had only one conversion experience in your life. You have to cling to it because that's the only one you are going to have. And IF you cling to it you are practically guaranteeing that you won't have room for another.
When I say it would be a nightmare to experience Christian conversion or some other religious conversion it is because there is no external evidence that such experiences are induced by any of these imagined entitites. It is the persons own conclusion that it is from Christ or whatever. It is the reason I don't believe in the Watchtower explanation of how annointed ones know they are annointed.
The Watchtower keeps misinterpreting the scripture at Romans 8:16 "The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God's Children" A feeling inside you is YOUR spirit. The way that God's Spirit bears witness to your inner spirit is by imparting a miraculous gift - tongues, healings, prophecy etc. If there isn't some unambiguous visible manifestation then there is NO witness. I don't know for sure what happened with the first Century Christians but those who claim annointing can't point to anything miraculous.
Conversion is a persons own private business. However, if they make it public it is not exempt from scrutiny. Since when is it wrong to examine "anything"?
on another thread many made the comments that the congregations not in the united states seem to have different rules than elsewhere, and also more freedom.. do people in other countries think of it mostly as an american religion?
do australians for instance show reverence for the governing body as much as an american seems to?.
outaservice.
It is an American centered religion. It has been a white American religion. It is American centered in its interpretation of prophecy.
found this interesting link, via a christian universalist site.
http://www.geocities.com/kencallen/russell.html it's a link to a letter written by charles taze russell to a universalist magazine (and the editor's response), wherein russell defends the idea that some will experience everlasting death, contrary to the universalists believe that eventually all will be reconciled to god, no matter how evil.
(i personally do not accept basic universalism but i think it is a lot closer to the truth than what the jw's currently teach as mankind's destiny).
The only thing thrown into the lake of fire (2nd death) at armageddon is the Wild Beast and the False Prophet.
No one else goes into Gehenna until after the 1,000 year judgement.
this is a quote from a recent hbo special that i saw.
i did not get the following joke.
please explain.
Louis Black is my favorite comedian right now. Wish I had HBO. I guess it will be on video soon.
i don't often open up discussions on my beliefs or experiences in life, but i feel a need, so please excuse me if you feel it untoward.
neither is this a poxy swan-song, i'm just opening up my heart a little.. today i had cause to reflect on a conversation i had with my [now ex-]wife shortly after my epithany.
everything was so new and unknown.
Little Toe:
I know you have been burning up with this and you just needed to give your "witness".
It just shows that our wetware can surprise us.
I would rather be certifiably insane than to have such an experience. It's probably quite like many of the annointed claim to experience.
It's kind of like trying to figure out what makes a man want to have his penis cut off, grow breasts, have the male brow flattened with collagen, take elocution lessons to talk like a female. And I'm talking about someone that then wants to be in a lesbian relationship. The mind can get you to do strange things. I'm not trying to make fun of this. A man that thinks his life will be better and more wonderful and fullfilling without his penis MUST absolutely do this. And if the powerful feelings of love for Christ puts bounce in your step and so enhances your outlook on life, well then you MUST absolutely go in that direction. But I don't believe it has anything to do with the REAL world but is an obsession created by your own imaginative powers.
Just curious did you ever have an alcohol addiction?
leaving the watchtower does not mean leaving god.
many here have been able to maintain a relationship with god without the need for a set of beliefs or a creed or any organised system of worship at all.
no churches, meeting halls or study groups are necessary just a deeply held conviction in the goodness of god and the value of a personal relationship with him.. such believers often stress 'spirituality' over religion.. now i don't mean to denigrate anyone's beliefs and no offence is intended but really, is a 'spiritual' approach to life any better for our mental and emotional well-being than being part of an organised religion?
Little Toe:
Are you talking to me?
You are the one who is talking about maps. What's wrong with "accurate" maps? And as far as passion. By passion do you mean "strong interest"?
Do you think perhaps some people have "strong interest" in science? Some of us have a passion for accurate maps. It is very judgemental to refer to anothers passion as "hell". For some artists "art" is their gate to their own personal hell. I had a friend whom, I believe was schizophrenic. His painting skills were excellent but his art was dark and violent. He had trouble relating to his wife and children when he was painting. I encouraged him to stop painting and instead use music as a creative outlet. He had a couple of really good years while he was learning jazz on the saxaphone. One of his friends told him I was full of s**t and that he should go back to art. He went back to his art. Shortly thereafter he abandoned his family. He was crazy til he died from his own personal neglect.
This is not science. I had a hunch that his "craziness" was tied up in the part of his brain that produced his art. Perhaps switcing medium of expression gave him a sane beach head. But I think art is not neccesarily the gateway to heaven. Science also can be "crazy". Some scientists seem to have disorders on the autistic spectrum.
Language is a tool box of words. Some are worn out. Some were useful at one time but they served a function that doesn't exist anymore. You can turn any heavy tool into a hammer. Which reminds me. I have a corner of my garage with a stack of old bumper jacks I need to throw out.
leaving the watchtower does not mean leaving god.
many here have been able to maintain a relationship with god without the need for a set of beliefs or a creed or any organised system of worship at all.
no churches, meeting halls or study groups are necessary just a deeply held conviction in the goodness of god and the value of a personal relationship with him.. such believers often stress 'spirituality' over religion.. now i don't mean to denigrate anyone's beliefs and no offence is intended but really, is a 'spiritual' approach to life any better for our mental and emotional well-being than being part of an organised religion?
"Spirit" is a word we should probably expunge from our vocabulary. It was an effort to describe WIGO (what is going on) in terms of entities that are invisible.
Spirituality is derived from Spirit and means "having a concern for or interest in" entities that are invisible.
Matter is what humans saw. Spirit is what they didn't see.
Even the use of the word "law" in science is rooted in invisible entities. Supposedly there is some spirit that wrote the law of gravity etc. I would mark "law" as it is used in science as a word to be eliminated.
Modern science thinks more in terms of "information" as the invisible. Information is truly invisible and weightless. Information involves "relations".
I prefer looking at the world as "information" so I am an "information" person.
Happy are those conscious of their need for "information".
<!-- .style2 {font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; } .style4 {font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: #6b7c84; } .style5 {font-family: arial, sans-serif; color: #008040; } --> the bible, religion and your point of view depending on where you stand regarding this subject there can.
no disputing the influence of the bible in art, literature, and even.
in the influence of the making of common laws.. separating the bible and religion this topic is not focused on discussing the watchtower's viewpoint.
It is very clear from this discussion board that we are caught between two stories. The old Bible one. And the modern scientific story.
ok, here's a hypothetical that i'm curious about.. what if armageddon really did happen?
not necessarily according to jw terms or timetable, but at some point it happens in your lifetime.
would any of you return to the jws?.
If it looked like the Bible's predictions were really coming true I would try to get with the people described in these scriptures.
Daniel 11:32,33 And as regards the people who are knowing their God they will prevail and act effectively"
And as regards those having insight among the people they will impart understanding to the many.
Dan 11:34 When they are made to stumble they will be helped with a little help; and many will certainly join themselves to them by means of smoothness (flatteries)
Daniel 12:1 And during that time your people will escape.
Daniel 12:3 And the ones having insight will shine like the brightness of the expanse and those who are bringing the many to righteousness, like the starts to time indefinite, even forever.
Matthew 24:22 On account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.
1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possesion, that you should declare abroad the excellencies of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
IF... the endtime prophesies appear to be coming to pass one must then expect the "holy ones" to become evident.
Who are these people?
