?So far most of the responses to this thread have been negative. I expected that. The greatest scourge mankind has had to deal with is war. It really is “good for nothing”. Without war every human on the face of the earth could live their three score and ten years in happiness. The resources used to protect national boundaries for thousands of years could have moved mankind to rare levels of achievement. There would be no pollution. People might even live much longer. Cancer would be cured along with a host of other diseases. Mankind would be a true success. Love your neighbor was Jesus’ primary command. This means that you don’t kill your neighbor. How blind do you have to be to ignore the fact that Jehovah’s Witnesses are exemplary in this respect? How jaded do you have to be to ignore the fact that all the mainstream Christian religions have brought horrible suffering on the world because of their bloody wars? There might be a case (although I don’t really believe that to be the case) if Christians were defending themselves from Moslems, Hindus, and Buddhists. But, these horrible wars were Christians fighting Christians. If JW’s are evil, in spite of their refusal to kill people in wars, what does that say about all the other main-stream Christian religions.
proplog2
JoinedPosts by proplog2
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Hillary_Step: Quite honestly I haven't read any UN definition of a cult. You refer to such a document but I haven't found it on the internet. Please post it.
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Void eater:
I quoted Lennon because of the simplicity of the solution to war that he presented. I could have just as easily quoted this:
Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Ain't gonna study war no more.
Actually John Lennon was a little crazy. He even had a religious conversion experience while living at the Dakota. It seems he was fascinated with Pat Robertson and Billy Graham.
Yoko Ono has tried to keep this secret. But you may want to check out these links:
?http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/june12/34.86.html?start=1
?http://www.beliefnet.com/story/197/story_19780_1.html
"When he (Lennon) became recognized as a leader, he began to empathize with the person
Christians referred to as “the Lord.” He wondered whether Christ, like the Beatles, had had
divinity thrust on him by over-zealous followers. Had Jesus been someone with a gift for
storytelling, insight into the human condition, and the ability to foretell the future, who had been
turned into a god figure against his will? John admired his central teachings of love, justice, and
seeking the kingdom of heaven but felt that Jesus had been co-opted by people with a different
agenda. He speculated that Jesus’ claim to be the son of God might have been a way of telling us
that we’re all divine but that most of us don’t recognize it. When asked to nominate his heroes for
the cover of Sgt. Pepper, John included Jesus, but it was eventually decided not to use this image." -
72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Hillary_Step: People have the right to define words any way they want. That goes for a word like cult. I am quite content with the dictionary's definition. Now, if I wanted to make money in the anti-cult business I would be concerned with adapting that definition so it would enable me to reach the maximum number of clients who might be willing to pay for my services.
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Hillary The argument over the derogatory label "cult" is another issue. Who cares what the UN decides is a cult. Are they NOT influenced by orthodox religions that feel threatened by a loss of membership? These so-called orthodox accepted religions have not hesitated to persecute newer religious groups. Cult is a useful word for power mad Bishops. I would say that a religion that practices mutilation of sexual organs as a condition of membership has a good start at being a high-control religion. What about religion that forbids the use of condoms and birth control pills? Or what about a group that hypnotizes its members into thinking a wafer on the tongue miraculously turns into the actual flesh of Christ? What about religions that trample their fellow believers to death at their religious feasts - Haj. It seems as if the word "cult" is a big screen on which people who refuse to take responsibility for their own stupid decisions can project their hatred. Ooops I'm not REALLY stupid - the CULT put a whammy on me! I don't need to have the last word on the subject of cults. I am sure that anything I say will evoke some kind of response. However, these are MY last words on the subject of cults -at least in this thread. It is just another way of avoiding the need to give credit where credit is due. HASSAN HASSAN HASSAN Oooooh. I like the sound of that. HASSANISM
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
What a Coincidence:
Sorry, I didn't respond to your first post about Hassan.
My brother-in-law (ex jW) likes Hassan and I've perused his copy.
I disagree with the basic premise of the anti-cult movement.
I think it is unfair to attack new religious movements.
The definition of "cult" has been established by those who are part of the anti-cult business.
The criteria are too broad which works in fine with those who make money promoting their books and seminars. Just like the Alcoholic's Anonymous groups definition of an Alcoholic - just about everyone is an alcoholic or at least an enabler. The anti-cultists are also to a degree victims of group-think.
I don't believe in free-will because of our nature. Most of us are inclined to want to please the group we are in. This no doubt has some survival value from an evolutionary viewpoint. If a person experiences too much tension in a group they will tend to look for a group that is more congruent with their temperament. But - then they will be inclined to please their new group.
High control groups are simply groups that have rigid boundaries. Some military groups like the Marines require rigid discipline to be effective at what they do.
Rather than focus on "cults" I think it is good to develop skills at good argumentation.
Most on this board tend to be inclined toward a certain perceived group attitude that keeps them from giving credit where credit is due when it comes to JW's. To be popular here requires an extraordinary amount of hate and a readiness to express it. -
72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Amish vs JW's
The comment was made that the Amish are a better example of "being no part of the world".
This depends on how you understand "no part of the world".
The Amish do not evangelize and seek to add outsiders to their church. Yet, Jesus' command at Matthew 28:19 requires them to "Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them...teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you". The Amish have invented a life-style that is totally incompatible with this requirement.
Furthermore, you need to read the scripture that refers to "being no part of the world".
John 17:15 "I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world just as I am no part of the world. Sanctify them by means of the truth; your word is truth. Just as you SENT ME FORTH INTO THE WORLD, I also sent them forth INTO THE WORLD."
How do you reconcile being sent INTO THE WORLD with the seclusion the Amish people have chosen?
Of course you have overlooked these fine points because you no longer have to defend the JW viewpoint. But, again the JW's are right on these issues.
The very idea that Jesus intended his followers to isolate themselves like the Amish shows how far you have drifted. -
72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Burn the Ships: A cliche' is not a rebuttal. By the way the primary definition of peace IS "the absence of war". You can stretch any definition by qualifying it. But, if you stretch the meaning too far then you alter the definition of the word so that nothing fits your definition.
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
Catbert: The purpose of the legal system is to insure justice. The early Christians used the legal system. Have you forgotten Paul's use of his status as a Roman citizen to obtain justice in his case? So, your questioning JW's being no part of the world is without any basis.
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72
WAR IS OVER-IF YOU WANT IT
by proplog2 inchristmas is the time to talk about peace.
jesus is called the prince of peace.. john lennon and yoko ono put out posters that read "war is over - if you want it".. peace doesn't depend on scientific progress.
it certainly doesn't take prosperity and riches to have peace.
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proplog2
erynw:
Apparently you have been isolated from human organizations EXCEPT for JW's.
The early Christian's were a motley bunch too!
Does "superfine apostles" ring a bell?
What about Jewish Christians not wanting to eat with Gentile Christians?
"Actually fornication is reported among you and such fornication as is not even among the nations"
"Really, then, it means altogether a defeat for you that you are having lawsuits with one another"
"I am writing you to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man."
So please tell us what extraordinarily bad things JW's do and explain how their bad things are worse then what other humans do.
You will find exactly the same kind of human badness in all religions, Catholic, Muslims, ...
But, on top of that these other religions can't let a decade go by without killing people on the battlefield. That's what this thread is about.
Please give credit where credit IS DUE. Or do you all prefer to be hypocrites. Are you all afraid of offending your fellow JW haters?