Posts by proplog2

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Drew: Why do you bring up a hypothetical case at all? Just drop it. The best you can say is that if JW’s were a majority they just might possibly behave in a non-christian war-like manner. You may even be able to say that as a minority they might suddenly go crazy and start a jihad. Anything is possible. But not all things are equally probable.

I am beginning to get the feeling that you aren’t arguing in good faith. You stubbornly refuse to admit to the speculative nature of your claim.

Why should I believe that JW’s NECESSARILY would behave like majority religions?

How can I respond at this point when there is no solid evidence for your claim. How can you say that you are absolutely sure JW’s would be warmongers if they become a majority.

Now lets consider your brief summation of JW’s stance on war.

Let us follow a basic outline of Watchtowers line of reasoning:

1. The Bible says Christians should not participate in war.

2. Most Christian religions (christendom) and their members have participated or supported many wars.

3. Jehovah's Witnesses do not participate or support any wars.

4. Jehovah's Witnesses are better than Christendom religions because they follow the bible in this regard.

They reason that are morally superior to Christendom (and people in general) because they do not do what Christendom does.

If two religions believe that the Bible says Christians should not participate in war and then one of the religions carries on warfare against other fellow Christians wouldn’t you say that one appears to be following Christ and the other one isn’t? Wouldn’t you say it is preferable for a religion to follow the teachings of its founder?

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

TD:

"we do not know how they would have acted with
that level of power and at that point in history. "

Yes, that is exactly why it is useless as a tool to advance an argument.

What form would the argument be?

SINCE JW's have never been in the majority THEREFORE: They shouldn't bring accusation against those who are?????????????? Who says? Is that a universal a priori rule?

Being in the Majority is never an excuse or justification for moral wrong.

Prophets were killed because they criticized their Kings and Priests. Were prophets out of line since they never themselves held the position of King or Priest?

Only 1 person in the USA gets to be president. Does that mean nobody has the right to criticize them?

I am not speaking as a JW apologist. I don't hesitate to criticize them. And to be fair, the Catholic Church has moved decidedly in the direction of Non-Violence. Actually, the early Church scholars spoke out against violence. It was mostly the secular authorities that pushed imprisonment,torture and death. The emperors would seek out Church authorities that would fit in with their paranoia over losing their thrones to various factions.

Somehow, the teachings of Christ were abandoned to the point that Christians were willing to kill each other.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Drew: When you are arguing a point - hypothetical situations are NOT statements of FACT. Maybe you don't realize that when you make a hypothetical situation the centerpiece of your argument you are grasping at straws. Empirical evidence for claims about nonexistent events is obviously not available therefore any alleged "evidence" is just part of your imagined construct. By treating a hypothetical situation as "fact" you are violating one of the most important criteria in argumentation, namely, having sufficient grounds for your conclusions. There is another assumption that you are making that I will deal with later. JW's are really on solid ground with this issue.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Drew Sagan:

Let’s start out with "Contrary to fact hypothesis ".

"I believe this to be a totally bogus argument based upon faulty comparisons."

That is a statement of your belief not a statement of fact.

You then proceed to construct a "story" a "scenario". Significant phrases used in your future Witness land:

"If

the Jehovah's Witnesses everbecame a majority in a particular country or geographical area their arguments would be proven totally wrong." (There’s that word "totally" again).

"Let us say that..."

(Pretend? - Let’s pretend that...)

You follow that with a bunch of questions about the nature of some imaginary country made up of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Those are questions that are legitimate to develop your story line. But, no one has to answer such questions. JW’s could give appropriate answers but it would fit the story they want to tell.

You may be right but there is no way of determining this based on a hypothetical situation. You are treating a hypothetical claim as a statement of fact. There is no emperical evidence for claims about non-existant events.

At best you present a likely story.

This in itself is a red herring. It's aim is to distract attention from the facts of Jesus' sermon on the mount and that there is no way to justify war based on the love Jesus advocated. Further it distracts from the fact that Christendom has failed to follow their alleged leader on one of Jesus' most important teachings.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Yeah VoidEater:

They claim allegiance to another Kingdom. They believe as their leader Jesus in a Kingdom that will crush all other kingdoms.

Yeah VoidEater turn them over to the authorities so they can kill them. They deserve to die because they are no friend of the emperor.

Impale them. Impale them. Impale them.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Amberrose: Of course. But Drew should be smart enough to figure these out himself.

21

Feeling sorry for the old time witnesses...wishing it were the "truth".

by integ in

it's really pretty sad.

i think of my parents, my aunt, and a lot of the old timers that have been in this thing for so long, and i can't help but feel sorry for them.

i mean, how devastating it would/will it be to find out they have been duped all along.

proplog2

Very few people come to the end of their days happy with the way their life turned out.

Whether there is a hope or not it is THEIR hope. You no longer share that hope.

If the reason you don't have that hope is that you are an atheist then ALL HOPE is just noise in the machinery.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Reformatted: Drew: Do you really think you have produced a water tight argument? Look over your logic and check for fallacies. You will certainly find them. I see at least one of each of the following: Red Herring Generalization A straw man Contrary to fact hypothesis Trivial Objections Can YOU find them? All you need is a little objectivity.

66

Why the Watchtowers "War" argument is totally bogus

by drew sagan in

from my own personal experience the watchtowers position on war always appeared to be one of the most difficult issues to navigate.

a number of times when i was first leaving the wts i spoke with jws who all used this argument to show me how "wrong" i was about the "truth".

while i knew the watchtowers arguments where wrong, i had a very difficult time figuring out exactly why it was wrong.

proplog2

Drew: Do you really think you have produced a water tight argument? Look over your logic and check for fallacies. You will certainly find them. I see at least one of each of the following: Red Herring Generalization A straw man Contrary to fact hypothesis Trivial Objections So find Waldo. You will learn from the exercise.

62

Having a guilty conscience and maybe I should go back to JW

by hambeak in

i have read the new wt and am thinking of going back.

i believe a lot of the teachings and i see what is going on .

i just feel a lot of confusion right now.

proplog2

Journey: You said: "You can waste an entire lifetime following after these men thinking you're doing it for God." OR.... you can simply waste an entire lifetime just thinking.