Posts by pseudoxristos

22

Gehenna

by Leolaia in

21 years ago

as john day discusses in his book on the god moloch, it is well known that in jewish literature and in the nt, gehenna is a term for the fiery portion of the underworld where the resurrected dead are destined to be punished (e.g.

4 ezra 7:36; 2 baruch 59:10, 85:13; mark 9:43, 45, 47), and gehenna itself derives from the aramaic name for the valley of hinnom, gehinnam, the valley to the southeast of jerusalem.

as an eschatological term, gehenna is constantly associated with fires that bring punishment to the wicked.

7 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

Leolaia,

There is a popular notion (endorsed by the Watchtower Society) that Gehenna became the term for Hell because there was a garbage dump there which was constantly being burnt up by an incinerator and that corpses were thrown onto it. However, besides the fact that cremation was unusual for the time, there is no archaeological support for this view and no ancient writer mentions it. It is found for the first time only about A.D. 1200 in Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13:

After finally having a chance to look into this, I've found the practically everything I read on the subject suggests that the valley of Hinnom was a garbage dump. The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary says the following:

Because of its nearness to Potters Street (cf. 18:1) and the consequent dumping of a lot of potters? rubbish just outside it, one gate of Jerusalem was known as Potsherd Gate. This gate led to a valley known either as the valley of the son of Hinnom, after a previous owner, or as Topheth. This 2 nd name may originally have had other vowels, e.g. Tephath (see above on 7:16-20). ?Tephath? may have had a particular significance which is now lost, or it may have been just a place name. Because of its previous association with child-sacrifice cults, Josiah made this valley into a garbage dump for the city (II Kings 23:10) and it smoldered continually with rubbish fires. When the doctrine of an afterlife with rewards and punishments became widespread among the Jews ? during the 2 nd and 1 st cents. B.C. ? (?valley of?) Hinnom was corrupted into Gehenna, the NT term for hell.
- Interpreter?s One-Volume Commentary, page 386a ?

2 Kings 23:10 (NRSV), suggests that Josiah defiled (garbage dump???) Topheth.

10 He defiled Topheth, which is in the valley of Ben-hinnom, so that no one would make a son or a daughter pass through fire as an offering to Molech. - 2 Kings 23:10 (NRSV)

Can you offer a little more information on the idea that the valley of Hinnom was not a garbage dump, or be a little more specific on what is meant by Josiah's "desecration" of the valley?

pseudo

Link

84

Urgent Plea from Jehovah by One of His Anointed (sacred secret revealed)

by Brownboy in

21 years ago

in all of my postings i have sounded out a message of warning to all of those that cared to listen.

we are at the point where a warning is in the form of a solemn plea.

i am revealing to you a secret that most everyone has always asked.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

"Jehovah will first cause your heart to beat heavily.", "You then begin to sense the taste of blood in your mouth.", "And finally, you feel a distinct impression on your forehead."

Have you ever considered getting a "Frontal lobotomy?"

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

Leolaia,

I see the error of my logic (or lack of logic). Thanks for the clarification.

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

There is absolutely nothing wrong with looking at the NT within its historical context. In order to do this it is necessary to look at non-canonical writings of the Jews prior to and during the first century. I never said that you had to base your faith on their content. If you refuse to examine how early Christians fit within the Jewish society of that time period, then that is your choice.

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

Have you followed the links I gave you?

Here are a two abbreviated quotes from Jewish writings prior to the NT.

(17)After our death in this fashion Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will receive us, and all our forefathers will praise us." (18)And to each one of the brothers as they were dragged away, those who were left said, "Do not shame us, brother, nor be traitor to our brothers who have already died."
(36)Then the place of torment shall appear, and over against it the place of rest; the furnace of hell shall be displayed, and on the opposite side the paradise of delight.

Follow the links, read the information, and come back with a reasonable argument in support of the NWT's placement of the comma.

pseudo

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63386/973216/post.ashx#973216
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63946/988434/post.ashx#988434

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

It only fits if Jesus and the criminal were still alive the next day. I pretty sure that you do not believe that they were.

Here are a couple of links to previous threads concerning the afterlife beliefs of the Jews prior to and during the first century.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63386/973216/post.ashx#973216
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63946/988434/post.ashx#988434

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

"I'm telling you tonight, it will rain tomorrow." (for instance').

A little better, but still not quite right.

Unfortunately it assumes that we will both be alive tomorrow to see if what you are telling me "tonight" is in-fact accurate. So it still does not quite fit.

Have you looked into what was commonly believed about the afterlife just prior to the first century?

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

I'll give you a 'for instance'. Tonight, I am posting on this site. Does that mean there is some deep, mysterious reason I used the word tonight? I used a comma too.

Your example is not really equivalent to the manner in which the idiom was modified in Luke 23:43.

A better example would be something similar to the following:

?Dude I?m telling you tonight I am posting on this site.?

If you did not normally use commas and you constantly used the phrase ?Dude I?m telling you?, most people would recognize ?Dude I?m telling you? as an idiom and assume that a comma would normally follow the idiom. Unless there was some significant reason, the comma would always follow the idiom. So, the above phrase would read as follows:

?Dude I?m telling you, tonight I am posting on this site.?

It is not at all surprising that Jesus or the writer of Luke would have believed in a literal Hell. This is not to say that they believed exactly what many people today believe about Hell, but it is obvious that they were influenced by teachings that had become popular prior to the first century.

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

There is really no need for Jesus to stress that he was telling this to the criminal on that "day". It's not like it was a casual conversation that they could resume on some other "day".

pseudo

Link

126

Does the Bible scare anyone else here sometimes?

by missy04 in

21 years ago

maybe i'm just messed up, but i get really freaked out sometimes.

i can't understand the bible,.....in some places it seems like it's saying all you have to do is one or two things, then it seems like it's saying you have to do different things to be saved.... so many different people and religions have so many different takes on the bible.

i don't know which to beleive, and it scares me that if i beleived the wrong thing that i could go to hell, or just go to sleep forever as the witnesses say.

21 years ago

pseudoxristos 21 years ago

afin,

In Sherry's comments( paragraph 4), above mine, is what I'm refering to. She felt that Jesus was saying that they would be in paradise that day.

Yes, that is how I understood your reference.

" amen legw soi " or " amen leqw umin " ( "Truly I tell you," or "Truly I tell YOU,") was a common idiom used by Jesus. If you will notice this phrase appears well over 60 times in the NWT. The Translators of the NWT chose to include the word "today" with the idiom in Luke 23:43. My question still stands: Why would Jesus find it necessary to change the idiom and stress that he was telling the criminal something on that "day"?

pseudo

Link