Posts by leaving

48

Strike 3 for the elderette and me! (???) I never heard a JW talk SO much about Jesus!

by Faithful Witness in

miss k and her friend miss w arrived promptly today.

our scheduled topic of discussion: jesus' claim to be "the way, the truth and the life..." john 14:6 since she was basing this topic choice on the fact that i had quoted that verse, i'm not sure why... she spent what seemed like a very long time, hopping through scriptures that all said that jesus was the truth, the way, or the life.

ok, so we agreed... i kept waiting for her to get to a point, or sway from this principle.. of course, she summed up with scriptures that show how jesus submits to the father, and what does that mean we should do?

leaving_quietly

So she kept pointing out how Jesus submits to the Father. Ok. Got it. So therefore... we submit to Jesus, and do what... ?? Follow his commands, beginning with his greatest commandment, love.

The thing with JWs is that they view "Jehovah" as the ultimate authority. Ok. That's fine. No issue there. But they also take the OT viewpoint of Jehovah "exacting exclusive devotion". Therein lies the big problem. When God exalted Jesus, this view changed. God made a covenant with Jesus and basically put Jesus in charge. He's the King. He's has "all authority in heaven and on earth." Does Jesus submit to the Father? Absolutely. But who are WE supposed to submit to?

Let's use an OT account and a NT passage to show this.

In the OT, Joseph became second in command of Egypt. Note what Pharaoh told Joseph. Genesis 19:39-44:

Phar′aoh then said to Joseph: “Since God has caused you to know all of this, there is no one as discreet and wise as you. You will personally be over my house, and all my people will obey you implicitly. Only in my role as king will I be greater than you.” And Phar′aoh added to Joseph: “See, I am putting you over all the land of Egypt.” Then Phar′aoh removed his signet ring from his own hand and put it on Joseph’s hand and clothed him with garments of fine linen and placed a necklace of gold around his neck. Moreover, he had him ride in the second chariot of honor that he had, and they would call out ahead of him, “A·vrékh!” Thus he put him over all the land of Egypt. Phar′aoh further said to Joseph: “I am Phar′aoh, but without your authorization, no man may do a single thing in all the land of Egypt.”

What do you think Pharaoh would do if people tried to do an end run around Joseph? Now, WTBTS likens Pharaoh to Jehovah and Joseph to Jesus, calling them "the Greater Pharaoh" and "the Greater Joseph" respectively. In all likelihood, Pharaoh would be quite annoyed if people tried to do an end run around Pharaoh. Don't you think Jehovah would be annoyed, too?

In the NT, there is a chain of command that is outlined. 1 Cor 3:21-23:

So let no one boast in men; for all things belong to you, whether Paul or A·pol′los or Ce′phas or the world or life or death or things now here or things to come, all things belong to you; in turn you belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God.

So, it's pretty clearly outlined who belongs to whom here.

I'm reminded of the Star Trek episode where Picard gets captured by the Borg. Commander Shelby, this hot-shot commander, wants her idea to be heard by the captain. Command Riker doesn't like her idea, but assures her he will take it to the captain. As he walks into the captain's office, he finds Shelby sitting, already having talked to the captain about her idea. As they leave, Riker is pretty annoyed, and in the turbo-lift, he tells Shelby:

"You disagree with me, fine. You need to take it to the Captain, fine - through me. You do an end run around me again, I'll snap you back so hard you'll think you're a first-year cadet again."

Basically, this is how the arrangement between Christ and the Father is supposed to be.

10

I need to verify some information

by JeffT in

jw
friends

there have been a lot of threads regarding changes in donations, kingdom hall ownership etc.

and what it all means.

i'm about to put on my accounting hat on and seriously consider the what it all means part (and why they may be doing it).

leaving_quietly

1) Kingdom Halls are now owned by the WTBS and not the local congregation

Not necessarily. There is a clause in congregation corporation bylaws that states that should the corporation evern be dissolved by whatever methods, the KH becomes the property of WTBTS.

2) Mortgages have been canceled, instead of making loan payments to the Society, the local congregations are pledging contributions of roughly the same amount. Congregations that had already paid off their mortgage are expected to pledge an amount roughly equal to what their mortgage would be if they had one. These payments will never end.

This is essentially correct. However, what is being donated on a monthly basis is to be reviewed every May. It might be possible that a congregation deems that the amount is lowered at some point in the future based on their own calculations as to when a loan would have been paid off.

Personally, I see this as a response to an undisclosed legal issue. Likely something related to banking regulations. Possibly a lawsuit somewhere. Possbily something with some other organization and the WTBTS is trying to get a leg up on it. Who knows? I don't. But it has "legal" written all over it.

29

International Convention

by msconcerned in

jw
friends

an email forwarded to a friend.

what do you make of it?.

below is a report about preparing for the seattle, washington international convention.

leaving_quietly

I just happened to look at the lodging list posted on the information board at our KH today. There are no hotels in downtown Seattle on the list. None. Nada. Zip. The hotels are in Seatac (by the airport), Federal Way, Bothell, Kirkland, Everett, Bellevue and Kent, as I recall. But not a single one in Seattle. The most expensive rate on the list is $124 for a 4-person occupancy. Most rates fall between $79 and $105 per night. And these are for hotels that normally are perhaps a little more expensive than that. They probably gave a block-rate discount that they'd normally give to anyone who books a block of rooms. That's just normal hotel business. The hotels on the list do NOT go for $385 per night at any time of year. We're talking Holiday Inn, Mariott, Red Lion, and hotels like that. The Red Lion by the airport is currently going for $79.99 per night (just saw the sign a week ago). Their summer rate is likely a little higher, but not by too much. Just thought I'd provide an update based on official informaion on the official lodging list provided by the Society.

29

TTATT in a Can... finally finished!!

by ILoveTTATT in

jw
friends

ok so... how to condense all the flip-flops and doctrinal changes, and show graphically how the different doctrines changed, and when?.

ttatt in a can!!.

enjoy ;).

leaving_quietly

marked... thanks for the spreadsheet, too.

35

The GB are really going out on a limb with this DF decision

by Quarterback in

this is how a do explained the family business policy re relatives of df/da members.. he said that the expression, "necessary family business," is really not a scriptural term.

it is nowhere found in the bible.

but, out of the kindness of the gb's hearts, they have gone beyond what is written and allowed association among families for necessary business.

leaving_quietly

But, out of the kindness of the GB's hearts, they have gone beyond what is written and allowed association among families for necessary business.

Hmm. What, exactly, IS written? Let's quote from the NWT:

1 Cor 5:9-13: In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

Why, they're right! There IS nothing written about not shunning family members. Then again, there nothing written about shunning ANYONE, either. The only place shunning comes into play is with the antichrist.

Shunning and "keeping company with" are two VERY different things.

Of course, the other take on the DO's comment can be found at 1 Cor 4:6: "Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·pol′los for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. "

So, by the him admitting that the GB is going beyond the things that are written, well.... I think the point is proved.

8

New Hall Funding Arrangement

by thedog1 in

jw
friends

well our local needs part on this went very uneventfully.

the brother read it out in such a way that the main thrust was the new arrangement with only two donation boxes in the hall.

then, almost as an afterthought to the proposed resolution to send exactly what we used to send as the loan repayment, he casually mentioned that we would no longer be paying a loan.

leaving_quietly

We had the letter read, too. Of course, I played dumb the whole time. I gave a very puzzled look when I saw the attendants handing out slips. When the elder was explaining it, I started to shake my head just a little. My wife leaned over and said not to write ANYTHING down and we'd discuss it later. Let's just say that this whole thing is obvious, even to the most loyal JW. At home, she called it a tithing (yep, she came up with that on her own), and said, "we don't do that!" She would continue to contribute, but would absolutely not commit to a set amount every month. She told me she even chewed out an elder after the meeting over this and said it really takes the willingness out of the picture and that the Society was wrong on this one. I suspected she wouldn't want to do this, knowing her as I do, but I didn't expect her to call out an elder. That was funny. Anyway, she said it was my decision, and I said we're not turning in the slips at all, and if they force us to, write down $0. I gave her the scriptural direction from Matt 6:3, which she agreed with this time. We didn't even have an argument over this. She made her own decision and I played dumb the whole time and just let her. It was quite fun to watch play out.

I did get a chance to explain about how the KHs will be owned now, and alerted her to how much money the Society raked in with the closures and sales of branch offices and their Brooklyn properties. She didn't much care about who owns the KHs. I also asked her to do the math on how much the Society stands to make. And when I did that, I realized something... most JWs probably only think at a local level. I told her to figure the amount if each publisher only give $1 and she said, "Well, that's $100 per month." I then said, "No, no, no... think globally." Then I walked her through the math and at the end said, "That's $96 million dollars in one year. Surely that could build a LOT of Kingdom Halls. This is a cash cow for the Society." Whether she thinks on that any more or not, I won't know right away. But the Society set it up so that this topic can be freely discussed. Maybe it will lead to other things. She did comment that there's a LOT of big changes happening and she doesn't like it. However, even with all this, it will take a lot more to wake her up. Since we use the wake vs. sleep illustration, you can still be sleeping and have bad dreams without waking up.

34

I be a walkin......

by out4good3 in

jw
friends

across that stage tommorrow dressed in graduate garb picking up a masters degree.. .

.

leaving_quietly

Nice!

103

That does it ! I'm leaving ! ! !

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

jw
friends

leaving the university with my degree!.

exams are finished and it's just a matter of days before i walk.. i was certainly stressed about doing this.

i'm older than my classmates and armageddon was sooooo close!

leaving_quietly

Very cool!

103

Additional BOE Letter: Please Be Advised that Further Direction Will Soon be Sent to the Bodies of Elders...

by TTATTelder in

dear brothers:.

we are writing as a follow-up to the letters dated january 24, 2014, and march 29, 2014,. to all congregations regarding the adjustments now underway to accelerate construction of king-.

dom halls and assembly halls.. .

leaving_quietly

If a survey is needed to determine the amount that can be contributed for local congregation expenses...

The "confidential survey" is not for every congregation, only those that do not already have a loan with the Society. If they have a loan, there's no need for a survey. Just send the loan amount (or more if the congregation so chooses.)

Again, though, "confidential survey" does not mean "anonymous survey".

But you, when making gifts of mercy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing
— Matt 6:5

103

Additional BOE Letter: Please Be Advised that Further Direction Will Soon be Sent to the Bodies of Elders...

by TTATTelder in

dear brothers:.

we are writing as a follow-up to the letters dated january 24, 2014, and march 29, 2014,. to all congregations regarding the adjustments now underway to accelerate construction of king-.

dom halls and assembly halls.. .

leaving_quietly

Exactly what I was thinking, nicolaou.

leaving_quietly

Posts by leaving_quietly