Posts by kepler

106

NEW BIBLE

by The Searcher in

the following is part of an email from a retired district overseer in the states.

(source private).

"the new bible will be released at the agm and i understand only two versions will be printed from now on.

kepler

The last one was, by all internal accounts, PERFECT!

But this one will be even better!

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

mP,

Again, in your responses you are attributing to me several things which were said by someone else: Cold Steel.

Overall, I'd say that you are raising interesting points. But many are just as much off the cuff as some of my own generalizations I am using to illustrate a point of view, not necessarily a closed case. A closed case needs supporting evidence.

Yes, there are comparisons of other middle eastern belief systems with those of the ancient Jews. We've just made some comparisons with Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultures. If Judea is a passive absorber, then score afterlife and one God from the Egypt; score for a lack of an afterlife and a disc world surrounded by water cosmology for Mesopotamia. Yet the coinciding features in Noah's flood in Genesis and that in Gilgamesh are much less detailed than those say of the text of Mark and Matthew. And there is always the possibility of an idea originating independently in the culture we are assuming is borrowing from its neighbors. After all, Noah is a very different personality than Gilgamesh. As a result, it is both difficult to demonstrate the cross-over from one culture to another - and to get a scholar to commit himself to such an idea in publications, especially with peer reviews. . Yes, there was a great flood in both stories - but otherwise...?

However, starting with the data point that Josephus identifies three belief systems about immortality among his countrymen and then we compare widespread Christian beliefs supposedly derived from these... Maybe it is worth examining the details here.

106

NEW BIBLE

by The Searcher in

the following is part of an email from a retired district overseer in the states.

(source private).

"the new bible will be released at the agm and i understand only two versions will be printed from now on.

kepler

Hmmm.... Translations into other languages.

I wonder if they will translate it into Hebrew and Greek?

Or did they do that already with the NWT?

I don't know much Greek, but enough to distinguish that a stake is a"palovki", not a "stavros". "Stavros" is a cross.

Translating the NWT back into the original is like unscrambling eggs.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

mP,

Just for the record, several of your replies were actually in response to things written by "Cold Steel".

Your last remark is quite interesting. Pharisee and Farsi are not necessarily coincidentally similar names. I've tried looking into this myself, but did not come up with anything. Very few sources will commit to saying that any ancient Hebrew beliefs came from anywhere beside their scriptures. As an assumption going in, Persians at the time of Cyrus were going over to Zoroastrianism in droves. I don't think Cyrus made his declarations of return in Azura Mazda's name, but Darius the First swore his testimonies in that manner. But if one accepts Zoroastrianism, one also is accepting more duality in the cosmos than is revealed in the Penteteuch or perhaps the whole OT: demons or devils. On the other hand, Hades is a Greek term. Combine with demons and you have "hell".

Regarding the veracity of Josephus, I find this an interesting anecdote. In chapter 7, a few pages after the description of the three "parties" and their beliefs, Josephus continues to describe reasons for the coming war. One was an increase in banditry; another was roving "zealots" who spread new beliefs and had large followings. At about 40 AD there was one led by an "Egyptian" which camped out with supposedly "30,000" followers on the Mount of Olives before Roman guards were called in to disperse them. In Acts 21:38, Paul was mistaken for this man, but his numbers of followers were marked ( more reasonably?) at 4000. A number of crowds and casualty lists recorded by Josephus sound similarly off by a magnitude or two. But there are differences in marking an event such as armies clashing that day and taking a tabulation of the size of the forces arrayed and the numbers fallen. Seldom have ancient historians underestimated these figures.

Cold Steel,

Quoting:

"Your best bet for ascertaining what the ancient Christians believed about the afterlife can perhaps be found with more accuracy through Christian writings which once were considered scriptural by some Christian sects, but not others. Relying on Josephus’ explanation of what the Jews, which were in a high state of apostasy, believed most likely is not pertinent to what the Christians believed."

I am aware of a number of indications of what ancient and present day Christians believed and believe about the after life. There are indications from the epistles that those anticipating Christ's return did not think they needed to resurrect because the return was so imminent. And by the time Revelations was written and read, those beliefs morphed further with a New Jerusalem descending. Yet all the same, if John of Patmos was writing at the same time as Josephus was writing, Josephus seems unaware of these beliefs, though he provides great detail about what happened to the Old Jerusalem.

I should also add that the origin of a eternal life in a restored paradise Earth still sounds strange to me considering other direct Gospel quotes such as John 18:36 ( "My kingdom is not of this world") and Luke 23:38 ( "This day you will be with me in paradise").

What is difficult to ascertain though, is high to evaluate a "high state of apostasy" among a people who we have yet to determine what their beliefs were or should have been, whether Christians or Jews. As you say later with the incident in Mark chapter 12, we are relying on Josephus for a notion of Sadducee beliefs. Mark has not been written yet, but the events are unrolling. If the Sadducees were trying to entrap Christ about his teachings, then they must have heard about them somewhere else. As a matter of fact, from what we have related in Mark about the resurrection, the story ends rather abruptly for our purposes.

You examined some other church writers, but I am afraid that I will have to look at and reply to those discussions later.

Thank you both for your consideration of these matters.

Kepler

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes,

Saw your note this morning. Thanks for pointing out chapter 14 of Job. As a result I did read over it and probably not for the last time. And rather than say, "Well, there's Hezekiah in Isaiah( 38: 9-12) and Job in 14 Job. That's 2...", I would like to ask if you or anyone else would like to add some more examples? The mother of the seven brothers in II Maccabees chapter 7 is one that comes to mind, though this is considered by most "deuterocanonical" at best.

Erroneously or not, I had come to regard Job as an OT explanation of why bad things can happen to good people. This implies that the readers of a certain era were probably thinking of covenants with the Lord in terms of a place on earth, prosperity and things that Job once had and regained. The prose introduction and summary seem to indicate those things were restored - even his children. So some editor of the inner kernel of poetry must have bought into the rewards of serving the Lord were in this life after all. Job in chapter 14 appears, at least, to raise the issue.

Elsewhere, the wisdom books such as Ecclesiastes should be examined in this regard as well. Are they speaking of final rest in peace with the Lord in eternity or stoicism in this life?

mP,

Does that second letter stand for Provocateur? Does Josephus saying something automatically make it a lie? Speaking on JW-net, I would think that what would stand out in his three divisions of Jewish thinking circa 65 AD was the fact that none of the descriptions seem to be congruent with a bodily resurrection on a Paradise Earth.

Does anyone get it? None of the Jewish groups were contemplating a return to Eden! And if you were to believe Josephus - true - they were even thinking of reincarnation. And the Essenes point of view, for which we have little other non Josephus information about save Essene library remains - our source thought they got their ideas from the Greeks. Well, the Greeks had been there all right. As had the Jews gone into a Diaspora about the Hellenic world. And there was the LXX...

Frequently, I had been told by JWs that the troubles Christianity had had was due to its submission to Greek influences. It had somehow gotten away from its roots.

Really?

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

There is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that I had encountered in the 7th chapter of Josephus's history of the Roman campaigns in Judea, "The Jewish War". One version of this is available in Penguin Classics, for example.

"Among the Jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called Pharisees, Sadducees and Essenes respectively..."

There is a lot to say about each, but the discussion about immortality or the lack of it has some bearing for this forum, considering how much of the theological arguments are predicated or extrapolated from Jewish beliefs - and how practices or documents of the Essenes are cited in defense of positions taken by religious thinkers of our own day. For the sake of discussion, we will include residents of Brooklyn with large printing presses.

Now it is reported by Josephus as well that the Pharisees are "held to be the most authoritative exponents of the Law and count as the leading sect. They ascribe everything to Fate or to God: the decision whether or not to do right rests mainly with men, but in every action Fate takes some part. Every soul is perishable, but only the souls of good men pass into other bodies, the souls of bad men being subjected to eternal punishment.

"The Sadducees, the second order, deny Fate altogether and hold that God is incapable of eitehr committing sin or seeing it; they say that men are free to choose between good and evil , and each individual must decide which he will follow. the permanence of the soul, punishments in Hades and rewards they deny utterly."

Now back to the Essenes:

"It is indeed their unshakable conviction that bodies are corruptible and the material composing them impermanent, whereas souls remain immortal forever. Coming frort from the most rarefied ethe they are trapped in the prison house of the body as if drawn by one of nature's spells; but once freed from the bonds of the flesh, ais if released after years of slavery, they rejoice and soar aloft. Teaching the same doctrine as the sons of Greece, they declare that for the good souls there waits a home beyond the ocean, a place troubled by neither rain nor snow nor heat, but refreshed by the zephyr that blows from the ocean. Bad souls they consign to a darksome, stormy abyss, full of punishments that know no end. I think the Greeks had the same notion when they assigned to their brave men, whom they call heroes or demigods, the Islands of the Blessed, and to the souls of the wicked the place of the impious in Hades, where according to their stories certain people undergo punishment - Sisysphus and Tantalus... and the like. They tell these tales firstly because they believe souls to be immortal, and secondly, in the hope of encouraging virtue and discouraging vice, since the good become better in their lifetime in the hope of a reward after death, and the propensitites of the bad are restrained by the fear that, even if they are not caught in this life, after their dissoluiton they will undergo eternal punishment. This then is the religious teaching of the Essenes about the soul, providing an inescapable inducement to those who have once tasted their wisdom."

----

I would say that Josephus here gives us a minimum of three views of Jewish thought contemporary to Jesus with regard to eternal life and the immortality of the soul. There were probably more, but what is significant here is that NONE of the groups named put any stock in the idea of bodily resurrection and life on a paradise earth. In fact, here is Josephus suggesting that many of the ideas about this matter came from the Diaspora or else directly from the Greeks, perhaps arising over the century and a half of their rule after the reign of Alexander.

From my own view, the accounts in the OT of the immortality of the soul are infrequent. Hezekiah in Isaiah seems to ruminate about an afterlife, but it never seems to occur to Job something of that nature. Separate from that, the Egyptians were obsessed with bringing the existing order into eternal life, but the Mesopotamian people seemed sceptical.

The NT certainly is about eternal life, but there are mixed signals about its nature. Yet in Mark 12:18 and onward, Sadducees confront Jesus about what is supposed to happen in the afterlife, the afterlife in which, according to Josephus, the Sadducees do not belief. Jesus replies that they "do not understand the scriptures or the power of God. For when they rise from the dead, men and women do not marry; no, they are like the angels in heaven."

Paul and the apostolic writers elaborate on Christian beliefs of the resurrection, of course, but to me the descriptions of the beliefs of the Essenes match the words of Jesus more closely than the other two principal belief systems.

Comments?

14

Catholic priest condemns & blasts Watchtower Society...

by Newly Enlightened in

with english subtitles.

i found this interesting that the catholics are blasting wtbt$ and demanding the wtbt$ recall their misquoted information from the reasoning book under subheading of 'cross':.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxybtrrh53u&list=wlgr2qszwt6b2giou9xsths1r7q0qkc_mb.

kepler

I am not a practicing Catholic, but I did attend the oxymoronically named institution known as Catholic parochial schools. I became a Catholic after age 12 subject to circumstances of growing up. And then left with no bitterness other than to say that I thought I should think things out more than I had.

Prior to those five years culminating in high school graduation, I had been exposed to several Protestant traditions and in summer camp one year I read most of the Old Testament on my own. Mystifying.

For those five years in the midwest and the NE of the US, aside from the observing the WTBTS billboards off in Brooklyn from the Staten Island Ferry, on the streets and in the schools and in the churches, the society had ZERO impact on my life or as a topic of discussion - save for the following:

1. It was observed at the time that JW movement was growing very fast.

2. It was observed that the proselytizers on the street probably had a better command of Bible verse than the average Catholic.

Otherwise, no comment.

As far as our instructors in classes were concerned, our parish priests and our religious weeklies or monthlies were concerned, there were better things to do. There were our own personal struggles with grace, upholding our faith, supporting our missions, determining whether we had vocations, maintaining our way of live, conducting ourselves ethically in our faith, learning and upholding it in public and private. There was attending mass, preparing to receive communion.... Debating the war, the Kennedys... Preparing for life. Deciding whether one had a vocation to be a priest, nun or brother - or the obvious rites of spring. You name it. This was true in the midwest or the north east as far as I could tell.

In passing many of my friends growing up and some of my relatives did attend seminaries and some even took holy orders and assumed vows. Many of these were contemplative. My instructors in school were not as priests but as workers in poverty, chastity, obedience - often being assigned overseas to missions in places that are now off the JW yearbook map. Some are still there teaching in schools.

Growing up I was much more aware of the Muhammad Speaks as an evangelical movement. Accousted on the street, I actually paid 50 cents or so for the privilege of his rants. And before I was a Catholic, I was aware of their comic books ( Treasure Chest?) which were far more appealing than the JW equivalents I never saw until I actually became involved with an adherent.

The whole matter has given me much time to reflect on differences between various Christian sects and their heritage from Jewish traditions. And there is clearly enough guilt to go around when it comes to sins of commission. But what I do find in thenarrow band discussion of past atrocities performed by Catholicism or in the name of the Pope is largely a long stream of Anglo-Saxon rationalizations. How else could 19th century WASP society justify itself unless there was a Christian history that got off the rail within decades after Christ had died and then was recovered by a series of Protestant heroes in the 16th to 19th century? Especially if they spoke English.

Imagine looking at this heavenly entitlement for centuries from across the Irish Sea. Or as a native in 17th century New England having a Congregationalist explain what Joshua's exploits meant to them in the new promised land of their own.

We are left with the absurd notion that the Protestant tradition tiptoed across the world and never did any harm to non-European peoples, never worked hand in hand with imperialism or served as its hand maiden. And centuries after Luther when Anglo-Scot evangelism kicked off to share its vision with the world, they moved out into continents that had already learned something of Christ from 16th and 17th century missionaries whose stories I will spare you the details of. For an interesting perspective, see H. G. Wells "Outline of History".

For a tradition that presumes that it is so much more superior, it doesn't seem to leave a vestige in any area for any common hopes. A 21st century Catholic, when speaking of Popes, has the heritage of John XXIII, John Paul II and the prospects for Francis the I. A mythology if you will, but here goes: JP-II as a follower of Christ - and as a Pole - stands up to the Soviet Union and does more than armies to avert Armageddon - something that seems awaited avidly in other quarters with hopes of technicolor broadcast. And Francis, a Jesuit who shows up in Brazil of all places - and three million flock to see him. No coercion. No district convention. He's just there to talk. Bigger than futbol. A get together about half the size of the whole JW movement in one city Brazilian city.

37

HELP NEEDED for the book I'm writing!

by Terry in

i'm about 90% finished on a book i started nine years ago.

it will deal with jehovah's witness policy on conscientious objectors during war time.

from the 1800's through the end of the draft in the early 1970's.. i am also giving a personal biographical account of my own introduction to the religion, process of assimilation and ministry experience.. additionally, i'm working in timelines connecting the 2nd adventist teachings with russell, rutherford and mainstream watchtower doctrines.. .

kepler

Terry,

For about a year and a half now I have been reading and enjoying your well written entries on these topics. I for one will greatly look forward to whatever you manage to run the publication gauntlet with. And as either an aspiring or a frustrated writer myself, I share your sense of dilemma about what to include or what to leave for another volume. Because you indeed have enough material for not one but several more. Slimboyfat and others are right about staying on target. But what is it?

While I have read some of your accounts of your experience with "conscientious objection", for lack of better ready term, I am not sure if that is the best way to introduce a larger reading public to the issues of being a Jehovah's Witness. I am inclined to think it might work better expanded in a second book, a subject that is touched on or introduced in a first.

Taking a position against state policy is a larger issue to the general public. There are pros and cons about pacifism and resistance to "police actions", "interventions" etc. And they still are with us today as similar foreign policy issues arise in a world that does not seem headed for Armageddon but maybe millenia more of what State Department analyst Fukyama once dismissed as "history".

So let me tell a related story with a different slant.

A few years younger than you, but during the same period, I stepped out of line in a different smaller way. While most of us high schoolers were from lower middle class homes, we were working our tails off to get through parochial school and into college. There were only two of us in the whole graduating class that "shoved" the idea and I was one of them. I enlisted into service instead - which left me four years to contemplate that decision too. ... It wasn't that bad. It just put me in a holding tank where I went down a career path unanticipated, tempered by the realization of my own immaturity. Never mind for now, what was my state of mind or rationale, save that somewhere I too was making a statement. It was individual.

Now beside the obvious contrast of conscientious objection or refusal to serve with going in as a "volunteer", there is something else afoot. I was already in an institution that was pervasive and manipulative. And I revolted against it. And then I seethed for four years realizing I had jumped from frying pan into a fire. Where school had thought literacy was critical thinking, the military thought of it as the ability to follow written orders - and especially if you were not an officer and hadn't gone to college.

Now my adolescent decision is not as interesting as yours, but it is individual. Yours was made in part for you by an institution I would have fled.

What the reader should wonder:

Why would that institution have such a hold on you?

Why is it such a flat earth society?

Why are its adherents so ready to squeeze their eyes tight shut about any contrary evidence to what is proclaimed from a printing plant located somewhere in Brooklyn?

What could be so menacing below a bunch of billboards viewed from the Staten Island Ferry?

Why would anyone subscribe to a theology and human hatred akin to that of an H. G. Lovecraft horror story?

You have the credentials of having put out for it with a prison term. You took very good notes on your circumstances and your manipulation. You have examined the psychology of it from both sides, plus the origins and history of it. What's more, I think what you have to tell the world is more than the repeated Pugachev cossack revolt line claiming, "If only we could get word to the Tsar or Tsarina..." Or the Trotskij in exile talking about how much better it would be had he been able to replace or liquidate a bunch of Stalins. Because the roots of this cult are deep in the American system. You've looked at it too.

The introduction should not be the details of your stand-in for Rutherford's successors, but why it was done or how could this institution have stood as a viable alternative to you or others spending lifetimes in its sway.

Now get to work!

27

Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus

by kepler in

over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.

it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".

since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.

kepler

G. C. McCaulay translation of Herodotus from the Greek - e.g., see Barnes and Noble edition, Donald Lateiner, editor.

Book VIII, paragraph 114.

During this time, while Mardonios was selecting his army and Xerxes was in Thessaly, there had come an oracle from Delphi to the Lacedemonians [Spartans], bidding them ask satisfaction from Xerxes for the murder of Leonidas and accept that which should be given to him. The Spartans therefore sent a heraldas quickly as possible , who having found the whole army still in Thessaly came into the presence of Xerxes a dn spoke these words:

"O KING OF THE MEDES, the Lacedemonians and the sons of Heracles of Sparta demand satisfaction for murder, because you killed their king, finding in defense of Hellas." He laughed and then kept silence some time.

Bobcat, Vidqun,

Did you happen to notice something?

Forget the scholarly opinion. Read Thucydides and Herodotus for yourself. In Greek if possible.

27

Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus

by kepler in

over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.

it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".

since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.

kepler

Bobcat,

"I had posted a lengthy (by my typing standards) list of possible evidences that Darius the Mede was one and the same as Cyrus the Persian."

That would make sense in a way. If I were having a conversation over dinner with someone who called Cyrus, "Darius", I could say something like, "Do you mean Cyrus?" But we don't get that opportunity and the narrator continues to make strange claims. Others have suggested the advance man or general Gobyras. But Belshazzar was not necessarily at dinner in Babylon. He might have been killed or captured outside of the city earlier at Opis. Plus, he wasn't the son of Nebuchadnazzar or even Chaldean. His father was from an Assyrian town to the north.

Nice hearing from you as well. - Kepler.

Vidqun,

The bit about Nabonidus being an Assyrian would lend credence to dining room talk in his reign in Aramaic. Just like with the Assyrian court. But that does not necessarily make Aramaic "the official language" of Babylon. Akkadian was the official diplomatic language in the Mideast for centuries, maybe a millenium. And it originated in the Babylonian region. All indications - Nebuchadnazzar spoke Akkadian; not Aramaic. Since he and his father fought a war with the Assyrians, he probably despised it.

That language or writing cannot be dated by vocabulary... Really? We do it every day. I date myself by calling wheelcovers "hubcaps". If I place a zero before the first 9 dates of the month, I move my correspondence out of the 19th century. If I wrote an undated letter in English and speak of "sputnik? or the atomic bomb, I leave clues for historians. Should the author of Daniel speak satraps at the court of Nebuchadnazzar in Aramaic, or "Darius the Mede", he leaves in history's dust that even a tenderfoot can follow. "Darius" is a variation on the Greek Darieos, but the Persian is more like Daryvosh. Name another Mede named Darius. You may as well look for 19th century Brits named Washington or Jefferson. "Darius" was an enemy of the Mede state.

Phizzy, mP,...

Have enjoyed reading your comments on a number of topics. Sorry I haven't been around as much to exchange views. But so long as the target is still on the move, there are always more rich veins waiting to be mined.

Best regards,

Kepler