Hannes, Rather than simply resigning myself to disagreeing with you, I thought further about the matter as I was reading some related material. In a book about MidEast archeology (Ebla) I ran into a discussion of similar Biblical controversies. The authors examined the arguments (Pro) for Moses having written the Penteteuch citing versus in the the OT and NT: Malachi 3:33, Nehemiah 8:1 and Luke quoting Christ himself 24:44. Each of these cases they simply cite "the Law of Moses". Now pay close attention to what Christ says in Luke, he speaks of the Law of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms.... What is meant here by the psalms? The title of this book in Hebrew is Mizmor. It is the first book of Writings. Psalms come from the Greek psalmas. What's my point. Josephus and Jesus were speaking of scriptures in the same manner! Aside from what Luke conveys here about Christ fulfilling the Scriptures, he has also revealed how they are supposed to be structured. And Daniel was part of Writings, not Prophets. I intend to discuss this further elsewhere. Hence, much of what has been done with the structure of the Bible by Christian groups has been to subordinate the Bible to objectives of their own.
kepler
JoinedPosts by kepler
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
Hannes, The example you cite is one which I have trouble with and have written about considerably on this forum. Where to start on this one? Daniel seems to have a good eye for what is going on during the 160s BC and leading up to it. What the book "predicts" after that is contentious. But the book raises more questions than answers about the period in which it was supposedly written. Almost all references to kings, regents and princes are either dead wrong or full of anachronisms. Descriptions of Dariuses could be Darius I or Darius II, but "Darius the Mede"? If you have a copy of a Bible with chapter 14 of Daniel, note that it starts as follows: "When King Astyages joined his ancestors, Cyrus of Persia succeeded him." Bingo. There was no Darius the Mede by the time you get to the end of Daniel! "Daniel was very close to the king, who respected him more than any of his friends." These lines appear in the Septuagint and not in the Masoretic text, and the story that follows relies on less miracle and more detective work than any that preceded. Why it should not make the cut, while many Septuagint verses do, since that is what the Gospel writers referred their readers to, is something of a recent phenomenon. For centuries the deutero-canonical material was included in the King James as well as the Catholic bibles. But what this chapter does is undercut a lot of what precedes it. As I said elsewhere, read a fairly close translation of Thucydides and you will find that the Greeks claim they won the Battle of Marathon against the Medes. The year was 486 BC. Who was their king? Herodotus was even more explicit. He calls Xerxes "king of the Medes in book 9 of the histories. It is not that Darius does not exist in history. The author of Daniel got his ancient history from the Seleccid greeks and he got it half digested. He screws up all over the place. The Hebrew Bible never said that he was a prophet and the only place in the Septuagint where he was mentioed was in Maccabees. Catastrophes heaped on the world such as the 607 BC and 2500 years are the result of Apocalyptic Christians promoting Daniel to a level he was seen at originally and recognized already by many as a late addition to the canon. In Chapter 9, his testimony,even if true, violates the criteria for being a prophet as defined by Josephus in Contra Apion. He cries out there that his people remain in bondage in Babylon, but they had been given permission to leave decades ago.
-
27
Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus
by kepler inover a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.
it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".
since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.
-
-
kepler
Some updates on this matter based on reading two books.
1. "Persian Fire" by Tom Holland, written in 2006 is a digestible recapitulation of the Persian Wars with the Greek city states in the 480s and 470s BC. Holland re-arranges the account of Herodotus to allow other connections to be made. I have not checked all of them, but I think he ran aground on an important one: the relationship of Astyages King of Media, Cyrus the future king of Persia, lieutenants of both individuals - and the subsequent King Darius I.
In book one of the Histories, Herodotus relates how Astyages, inspired by a dream directs Harpargos to murder the young prince Cyrus. Regarding the dream, Astyages had consulted magi on this matter.Harpagos, having failed in that, Astyages kidnaps his son, butchers him and serves him in a stew to his father. Harpargos continued to serve Astyages but stewed as well in his own anger. He worked tirelessly in behalf of Cyrus and confronted Astyages after Cyrus captured him in the field of battle. Subsequently he served Cyrus as a general in campaigns through Asia Minor.
In Herodotus, I can find no indication that Harpagos changed his name to Hystapes and became the father of Darius. Whether this is an error of Holland's, a pet theory or the tale of another ancient writer, I cannot say. But I certainly cannot find evidence to support this theory.
2.) "Ebla" right now appears to be the more interesting of the two books, though it might not be appropriately named. Archeologists and scholars of ancient Jewish life, Chaim Bermant and Michael Weitzman collaborate here, describing Italian work on Tell Mardikh in Syria near Aleppo and the background surrounding it. Ebla is rich in ancient cuneiform, best described for now as Proto-Canaanite from the 3rd millenium BC. Somewhat like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Ebla created excitement and anticipation for the public, especially with regard to the Pentateuch and possible connections to this hardly known city ( a few brief references in the OT). The third chapter of the book gives a broad 25 page survey of Biblical controversies over presumed anachronisms, sources such as J, E, P and D, the tribal heritages, contradictions, etc. Arguments posted are pro and con for "inerrancy" for lack of better term.
The fourth chapter was devoted to "Cuneiform without Tears" - and this is an exciting history of how the codes were cracked, starting with ancient Persian, largely off the testimony of Darius I in Behistun, Iran.
Rawlinson, a British army attache to the Persian government, cracked the code by comparing the genealogy provided by Herodotus, another tablet with a suspected list of kings ( Darius, Xerxes, king, king of kings, Persia... etc.). We finally get in English translation "Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian..."
Herodotus and Darius appear to be in agreement about both who his father was. Both Herodotus and Thucydides identify Medes as the invaders of Greece in 486 BC and Darius was king. Herodotus, as said above, calls out Xerxes as king of the Medes.
Now try to get Daniel to match like that with anything - save for predicting a perpetually receding event.
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
Well, I've got some answers of my own. They are Old Testament, but Deutero-Canonical.
It depends on how you regar"Wisdom". or Wisdom of Solomon, an Alexandrian composition probably predating Philo and drawing from Septuagint texts.
From Chapter 2:
There is a discussion of life as the godless see it and how the believer should be tested and put to torture to see if God will intervene. In answer:
23. For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature, Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy, as those who belong to him find to their own cost.
From Chapter 3:
1. But the souls of the upright are in the hands of God, and no torment can touch them.
2. To the unenlightened they appear to die, their departure was regarded as a disaster,
3. their leaving us like an annihilation, but they are at peace.
4. If, as it seemed to us, they suffered punishment, their hope was rich with immortality. slight was their correction, great will their blessings be.
God was putting them to the test and has proved them worthy to be with him; he has tested them like gold in a furnace and accepted them as a pefect burnt offering.
...
10. But the godless will be duly punished for their punished for their reasoning ...
--------------------
I open the floor to comments on this one. But it looks to me like the Deutero-Canonical explains New Testament concepts better than the canonical Old Testament. This is an Alexandrian/Hellenic/Jewish outlook not far afield from that of Paul and perhaps one or two of the Gospel writers. It also puts the description of Josephus of the Essenes in perspective.
-
106
NEW BIBLE
by The Searcher inthe following is part of an email from a retired district overseer in the states.
(source private).
"the new bible will be released at the agm and i understand only two versions will be printed from now on.
-
-
kepler
Beside the text of the books of the revised NWT, there will probably be some appendix material such as historical time tables.
Beside its obsession with 607 BC, the NWT provides a "Table of the Books of the Bible" right after Revelations. The table names the book, who wrote and when. Amazing, one would think, just to know. But the marvels go further. For example:
Moses wrote Genesis in 1513 BC in one sitting, and addresses Deuteronomy about 40 years later, providing the last chapters after he died and was buried in an undisclosed location. In that same year of 1473, he reportedly also wrote "Job", about a period in the life of someone who was NOT one of his people, but was a successful camel caravan owner who lived for 140 years... Must have had a hankering to write a poem on the plains of Moab. An anonymous one at that. I wonder what alphabet he used for all this.
Joshua wrote Joshua in Canaan. I guess he wrote in the proto-Hebrew Canaanite alphabet. He repeats himself sometimes though.
Daniel wrote "aniel" in 536 BV... Funny. I always thought the chapters were kind of choppy, considering he did it all in one sitting. In chapter 9, he said he was writing much later. Check the Darius he mentions. It's not the first. And all those deals with the satraps. Two different languages. first and third person.
Peter wrote his epistles in Babylon. He said so. Wonder why? I thought it was supposed to have been destroyed forever. Isaiah said so. He wrote this in 732 BC and predicted Cyrus would take Babylon. But he never got around to telling Daniel! And we never hear of Nabonidus from Daniel. Nor of Cyrus. That's just in chapter 14 in the Septuagint. Kind of embarassing since Daniel forgets about Darius the Mede there.
And, O yeah. No doubt about the date and authorship of the other NT books. Paul just had to have written Hebrews and the same John wrote Gospels, epistles and Revelations. The only author labeled "Apostle". No doubt about it. Paul had to have written Hebrews too, though for some reason he did not sign his name this time.
All these little dogmatic nips and tucks help to make a 607 BC based pyramid scheme possible.
Let's see if there are any revisions there.
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
Quarterback,
That's a good spot. Searching it down, Martha spoke in John 11:23-24. But what we've got is another data point. The Old Testament does not make this idea abundantly clear. And I offered Josephus to show how a contemporary of John broke official beliefs down. If Martha answered as she did, then there could very well have been a widespread fourth point of view, but there remains the question of where it came from. From Christ's teachings alone? From the preachings of others? From a sect not as yet mentioned? Or a different Essene viewpoint?
Then, of course, if Lazarus was a demonstration of what was to happen to us after we die ( the text says that he was dead), then what became of Lazarus after that? There would be a lesson there too.
With regard to the Essenes, for instance, do we know of their beliefs from other sources? Or do we pay any attention to them at all other than for the fact that they held some of our most ancient copies of Scriptures and related texts? What Josephus says about them does not seem to contradict the archeological evidence - unless someone has proof otherwise. And what's more, when it suits, people of very orthodox beliefs are perfectly willing to cite Josephus when it suits their purposes. After all, since Jewish Antiquities paraphrases the OT, then both must be true, no? Furthermore, how do you distinguish one ancient Jewish writer from another in matters of secular or spiritual authority? How is Josephus distinct from Ezra or Nehemiah? Does he not give us the definition of OT canonicity that will be cited forever?
Hannes,
Still devoting some time to the Genesis question. Since there are questions about apparent anachronisms in Genesis and the other books, it is easy to shoot from the hip and dismiss everything. But I think it deserves more investigation at the least. Even if some of the inferences hold water, there are still mysteries enough to keep us occupied - E.g., Just who was Moses?
This admittedly does not directly advance the question about eternal life views, but I did look at some other sources for accounts or pictures of camels. Some fundamentalists say that there are pictures of camels in Egyptian sites, but I have not yet located them in my books about Egypt. The earliest renditions I found of camels on the wall, so to speak, were with Shalmaneezar III of Assyria circa 825 BC. The recent book on Egypt by Toby Wilkonson sayst that Darius I (522-486) introduced camels into Egypt during the Persian occupation in the midst of civil engineering projects such as the building of the original Suez canal. The camels were brought in from Bactrian and Arabian provinces and improved communications with the principal oases. Climate was drying out vs. a millenium earlier.
Perhaps it could be said that this was a "re-introduction" of camels since Abraham's time. But there are other anachronisms to deal with as well. Philistines at Gerar in Genesis is another problem since the Sea Peoples invasion into Egyptian territories is a feature of the 12th century. Explanations are given for individual anachronisms, but when anachronisms are taken together their existence argues persuasively for a late date of writing.
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
Hannes:
Regarding camels, what shall we make of the several reports in those documents that ended up in that collection we know as the Book of Genesis, to which Moses at best was redactor adding a few minor explanatory remarks? There are three accounts that come to my mind where camels were mentioned as an integral part of the lives of those 3rd and 2nd millenium B.C. people of the near east. Between the time of Abraham and Moses' days there is as far as I can see no need to doubt the existence of larger herds of camels. (But maybe this has not been questioned regarding the origin and time of the Book of Job).
-------------
Hannes,
Since you, I and either proponents or scoffers of camel caravans were not there in person, aside from the mentions in Genesis, we are faced with a matter for detective work. Since I brought up the matter with Job, I did look at some discussions about camels. As said before, camel herds existed, and some could even have been domesticated for consumption by non-Jewish nations, but when did the camel caravans start showing up in the regions between Egypt and Mesopotamia?
I did find one interesting Smithsonian archeological study: "Camel Caravans and Camel Pastoralists at Tell Jammeh", by Paul Wapnish. This was a southern Israel site (10 km south of Gaza) with animal remains going back to the second millenium BC. A twenty page report with plenty to examine, it is noteworthy that camel bone specimens started picking up after corresponding evidence for Assyrians present in the 9th century BC. Camel bones really took off in the segment labeled 675-600 BC. Largest sample was from the Babylonian and Persian periods.
Of course, this is just one report on an interesting topic. I would like to get back to this later with regard to Genesis.
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
Hannes,
I'd say keep going. You're doing fine so far with contributions. I suspect that the sort of passages we are looking for to shed light on this matter are not easy to track down simply by checking a concordance.
Aunt Connie,
Not sure I fully understood your reply. To sleep better though, I'll just assume everything is OK.
If it's any help regarding sources: I probably first came across the descriptions of the three parties several years ago when I slogged through "The Jewish War" in a Penguin paperback. Then, when for one reason or another, I went looking for what I read, I searched in vain in "Antiquities of the Jews". A lot of paraphrase of OT stories with some asides, but nothing as telling that I can recall. "Against Apion" had a description of how canonical systems of books are made - at least among the author's kindred. Reading the text, one would think that the conventions were long standing- but I believe the conventions were in the lifetime of the author Josephus at a place called Jamnia (sp?).
"We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another; bout onely 22 books, which contain the records of all past times, and which are rightly believed in. And of these, five belong to Moses, which contain the laws and the tradition of the origin of mankind till his death for a period of nearly three thousand years. From the death of Moses until the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets who wrote down the things that were done in their times in 13 books. The remaining books contain hymns to God and precept Artaxerxes to our times all things have indeed been written down bur are not esteemed worthy of a like authority because the exact successionof the prophets was wanting..."
And now I take you to Daniel 9:1.
"It was the first year of Darius, son of Artexerxes, a Mede by race who assumed the throne of Chaldea..."
The author of Daniel has discredited himself in the eyes of Jospephus as a prophet - as can be seen in the structure of the TaNaKh. Never mind that there is plenty other evidence of 2nd century writing under Greek suppression and tutelage. If you want an explanation for who Darius the Mede was, look to Thucydides who claims that the Greeks defeated the Medes at Marathon in 486 BC. Who was the king? Darius I of Persia, inventor of the satrapy. But the Darius to whom Daniel (II) refers in chapter 9 comes even later. Chapter 14 tries to rectify the history. Included in the Septuagint, it has been recently dropped in King James versions.
I no longer wonder why.
So, anyway, Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth, Lamentations, Job, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Chronicles, Ezra/Nehamiah, Song of Songs and Daniel are all relegated to "Writings".
Note that Josephus did not attribute Job to Moses, not that I am saying that he should. Researching the angle that Job was a Camel merchant or rancher, I did look at some articles about camel caravans. One on line archeological report indicated that camel bones at at least one stopping point on the route between Egypt and Mesopotamia in Judean vicinity had hardly any camel remains until the 6th century. Wikipedia reports indicate that the camel caravan trade picked up with the Assyrians building forts across Arabia. They were domesticated further and in Arabia east centuries earlier, but were exploited in the East Med region in Neo-Babylonian times.
... So are the ideas of Job introduced into Bible from 7th century peoples of the Assyrian empire? What clues I have had from examining Greek writings thus far have been serendipitous. The problem of Job's origin seems like a tougher nut to crack. It's not a history, not a collection of sayings or songs and not a collection of rants or prophecies.
AC, you also indicated that a wider net should be cast when speaking about beliefs of life after death - or what happens after the end of life. I did not mean to say that Josephus had covered all the bases. And, I confess, that it sounds plausible that reincarnation beliefs that developed further east could have been brought back by Greeks or made their way west more directly with trade. If your Hellenic or Roman studies shed some light on this matter, please tell.
As a kid I remember reading one of Robert Heinlein's books about space travelers gifted with longevity, Methuselah's Children. Amid a quick getaway from earth headed for the stars ( all right...), I remember one of the onboard doctors lamenting that he had not brought along a carp or two to observe for several decades or centuries, because ( circa 1943) he wasn't sure that they died natural deaths. Have we had enough time of our own ( or data) now to settle this one? Or should this be cited as an argument in favor of a hybrid type of return?
Kepler
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
From "Lost":
...Before Christianity, before the Bible, before Jesus, before the Greeks, (going back 1,000's of years) in every ancient culture, there was some form of worship and belief. There was a belief in an afterlife. There was belief in God/gods. There was a belief in demons/angels/spirits. There are many stories of supernatural beliefs, myths, folklore, etc. There are many flood stories.In short, there was a pre-existing belief stucture in place, for a long time.
What I ask myself, is why.Why do these things exist, if there was no foundation for such things. Also, why cannot we explain an inherent belief in God. there must be a reason for it.
---
Lost,
I think your characterization of the human condition back then was partly true. But the examples I am finding from reading about ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Israel, Persia and Judea is that they all had their own versions. The people in Mesopotamia had gods, but they were sceptical about immortality. Check it out. The Egyptians, who had gods as well, seemed to take immortality as a given and spared no expense in preparing for it - unless we are misled by the accounts of the pyramids. Also, some features of Greek or Persian beliefs seem either similar to ones that grew up in Judea or else had some influence on them.
But when we get an accounts such as Josephus, who is giving us a snapshot of the later first century AD, we do not see unanimous beliefs among the Jews.
Cold Steel, for example, said that the variety of belief illustrates some kind of apostasy. I am not clear as to which ones he meant. Maybe all. But as I read the accounts of Jewish behavior (Roman province of Judea) prior to the war, the passive resistance to Roman demands for "graven images" of Emperors and gods in Jerusalem, I don't see how that holds water.
It is also often argued that disaster befalling humanity - after the fact - is a punishment from heaven. Josephus did not provide that as an explanation so far as I can tell, anymore than say, Churchill offered that as an explanation for WWII.
-
39
Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life
by kepler inthere is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".
one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.
"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".
-
-
kepler
Ding,
Thanks! That's a good verse to consider for this topic. When I wrote back to Hannes above, I said that I understood the book of Job to address the question ( somewhere) about why bad things happen to good people. You and Hannes have spotted verses which specifically address this matter in terms of an afterlife.
Now, the question remains for me: Is this a different ( or more explicit ) view than the majority of the Old Testament? If it is, then this might mean that Job has a distinctly different origin than the bulk of the OT. Since Job is not identified as an Israelite, then perhaps it is something that originated elsewhere. But from whom? Since Job owned herds of camels, I am forced to wonder what he was doing with them. If they were not for caravans, it should be noted that they are regarded as non-kosher in Leviticus 11:4. In Central Asia and Arabia, camels might have been domesticated, but camels and pyramids are an anachronism courtesy of cigarette packages. They weren't there from time immemorial. In other words, I don't think Moses churned Job out in his spare time.