Posts by kepler

24

I had NO idea about the letter to Hitler......

by Flg8ter in

this was brand new to me........did some research, like we're not supposed to do ;) and dug up crazy stuff that i had no idea about.

my whole life we were taught have bad and evil "christendom" was for trying to pacify hiter during his rise to power, and how different we were for standing up to him!.

then i found about the letter dated june 25,1933 from rutherford and his writting team to hiter.

kepler

"It Can't Happen Here" by Sinclair Lewis was published in 1935. My paperback edition is a 350 page novel about an American implementation of the concepts of Mein Kampf. I am not sure when Sinclair Lewis actually sat down to his typewriter or started to draft his version of what was happening in Germany transferred to America, but I don't think it was instantaneous in 1935 either. His wife Dorothy Thompson was a Berlin correspondent from 1927, interviewed Hitler, wrote a book about it in 1932 ( "I Saw Hitler") and was expelled from the country for it in 1934. Since Lewis also wrote "Elmer Gantry", I can't help thinking he was something of a clairvoyant in these matters. They are almost like companion volumes. Maybe Rutherford should have read "It Can't Happen Here" or Thompson's reporting from Germany sometime when he wasn't writing of, speaking of and profiting from Armageddon talk himself.

3

Luke 24:44, the canon and its distortion

by kepler in

elsewhere on this forum in some wide ranging discussion there was the question of who had originally written the pentateuch and job.

there are some who would say that the first five books of the bible ( and even job) were written by moses; and then over the passage of centuries, more and more arguments were cited for other origins for these books.

perhaps coincidentally i ran across book about mideast archeology ( the ancient city of ebla) which in the course of providing background gave an overview of this and similar biblical controversies.. the authors examined the arguments (pro) for moses having written the penteteuch citing versus in the the ot and nt:.

kepler

Phizzy, mP, Over the years I have picked up several books that discuss Biblical criticism, which is to say that the text is analyzed similar to other ancient writings. The result is that the "literary" theories such as authors J for Yahweh, E for Elohim, D for Deuteronomy, P for priestly and so forth are described and examined. The discussions come from various religious groups ( e.g., Protestant, Jewish, Catholic and not-committed) and the level of support for this theory or others varies. Rendsburg, for example, is sceptical about it himself, but uses it to illustrate very significant features of the Pentateuch. He also ignores others, such as repeted and alternate versions of the same story. But with regard to Josephus and the canon, his 22 books are essentially the books that are accepted in the King James Bible. Some are combined such as Kings, Samuel, Chronicles, Ezra-Nehemiah. And they appear much in the same manner in Hebrew bibles used in Judaism today. It is the so-called Deutero-canonical that appeared in the Septuagint, that are not accounted for by Josephus. These were included for some time in King James publications. And they remain in Catholic bibles to this day, if not in others. An interesting exception is the Book of Enoch. Hardly readable in its full extent and it seems to pass into I, II and III segments like a skipping rock. Where would someone draw the line on something like this that seems to have less and less provenance the more it goes on? But what is significant about the Deutero-canonical is that these books ( and chapters) are ones that shed great light on what is contained in the main text. The devil and eternal life are discussed in the same breath in Wisdom of Solomon. That's the ONLY place in the OT I've seen for sure either or both. It's written in Greek maybe in the 1st century BC in Alexandria by an evidently Hellenic but anonymous Jew and seems to have the qualities that Josephus attributes to the Essenes. He accuses them of importing Greek ideas in Contra Apionem. Yet as far as I know there has been no copy of Wisdom of Solomon recovered from Qumran. Maccabees is the only reference to Daniel in the Old Testament. And as I see it, Daniel is the root of a lot of the difficulties with Christian thought today. A whole lot of people are aware of the misinterpretation of Daniel, but I don't think many are aware of how much has been done to cover it up. Since we don't know who wrote the other four books, it is hard to say that Deuteronomy is actually a fraud. The title just might mean what it says. It could very well have been written by the same group of scribes decades after the original four, assuming these did not have second editions. But I am fairly confident it was discovered in Josiah's reign and influenced his policies toward a purge. He died a zealot facing Egyptian chariots. Yet to the minds of the prophets,the kingdom of Judah had erred and needed to pay for its ways. Go figure?

3

Luke 24:44, the canon and its distortion

by kepler in

elsewhere on this forum in some wide ranging discussion there was the question of who had originally written the pentateuch and job.

there are some who would say that the first five books of the bible ( and even job) were written by moses; and then over the passage of centuries, more and more arguments were cited for other origins for these books.

perhaps coincidentally i ran across book about mideast archeology ( the ancient city of ebla) which in the course of providing background gave an overview of this and similar biblical controversies.. the authors examined the arguments (pro) for moses having written the penteteuch citing versus in the the ot and nt:.

kepler

Elsewhere on this forum in some wide ranging discussion there was the question of who had originally written the Pentateuch and Job. There are some who would say that the first five books of the Bible ( and even Job) were written by Moses; and then over the passage of centuries, more and more arguments were cited for other origins for these books.

Perhaps coincidentally I ran across book about MidEast archeology ( the ancient city of Ebla) which in the course of providing background gave an overview of this and similar Biblical controversies.

The authors examined the arguments (Pro) for Moses having written the Penteteuch citing versus in the the OT and NT:
Malachi 3:22, Nehemiah 8:1 and Luke quoting Christ himself 24:44.

Malachi 3:22 - Remember the Law of my servant Moses to whom I at Horab I prescribed decrees and rulings for all Israel. Nehemiah 8:1 - Now when the 7th month came round - the Israelites being in their towns - all the people gathered and asked the scribe Ezra to bring the Book of the Law of Moses which Yahweh had prescribed for Israel. Luke 24:44 "This is what I meant when I said, while was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses, in the Prophets and in the Psalms, was destined to be fulfilled." Each of these cases they simply cite "the Law of Moses". Whether Moses wrote the book or it was handed down, I'd say that is left unclear. Now pay close attention to the phrase "the Law of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms".... What is meant here by the Psalms? The title of this book in Hebrew is Mizmor. And in the Hebrew Scriptures, it is the first book of Writings.
Psalms come from the Greek psalmas. What's my point? Josephus and Jesus were speaking of scriptures in the same manner! Aside from what Luke conveys here about Christ fulfilling the Scriptures, Christ in this text from Luke also reveals how scriptures are supposed to be structured. And Daniel was part of Writings, not Prophets. An early, clear conception of the Canon meets us in the pages of the Jewish historian Josephus. In his Contra Apionem (I. 38-43), written to establish the antiquity of the Jews and the trustworthiness of their history, he wrote,

‘We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another; but only 22 books, which contain the records of all past times and which are rightly believed in. And of these, five belong to Moses, which contain the laws and the tradition of the origin of mankind till his death for a period of 3,000 years. From the death of Moses until the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes ( or Ahasuerus), the prophets who came after Moses wrote down the things that were done in their times in 13 books.

"The remaining books contain hymns to God and precepts for the conduct of human life.’ …

That would be Psalms, Proverbs and other books which are indicated in Hebrew Scriptures to this day. In other words:

In the Hebrew Bible these books are divided into three divisions: the Law, the Prophets and the Writings.

The Law comprises the five books of Moses. In the ‘Prophets’ are included the books of Joshua, Judges, Samuel and Kings (the ‘Former Prophets’) as well as the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah. Ezekiel and the ‘Minor’ Prophets (the ‘Latter Prophets’).

The ‘Writings’contain under three subdivisions:

1. Psalms, Proverbs and Job;

2. a group of five books called the ‘Five Scrolls’, Canticles, Ruth. Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther;

3. the books of Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles.

There are two issues to be addressed here about scriptures: when they were written and when they became part of the canon of which Josephus and others speak. One trial balloon for the canonization is provided by Professor Gary Rendsburg as follows:

Formation of the Canon

c. 450 B.C.E. .................................................Books of the Torah become Jewish canon.

c. 250 B.C.E...................................................Books of the Prophets enter Jewish canon.

c. 100-150 C.E................................................Books of the Writings (e.g., Psalms, Proverbs) enter Jewish canon.

c. 200-700 C.E................................................Christian canon formed, by different churches in the Near East and the Mediterranean, by accepting the books of the Jewish Bible, the books of the Apocrypha, and the New Testament as Scripture.

Of course, Rendsburg’s schedule does not take into account Christ’s New Testament input into the discussion, which would give Writings an earlier date, but Rendsburg gives a significant distinction between the older segments of the OT and the newer ones: words borrowed by the Hebrew writers.

Despite disputes about Pentateuch authorship addressed by J, E, P, D and other source writers, the text is in a classical Hebrew. Even up to destruction of the Temple, no borrowed words or other languages. Daniel alternates between Aramaic, Hebrew as well as 3rd and 1st tense with plenty of borrowed words (e.g. satrapies from the Persians applied to Babylonian government) and the actual monarcs that he supposedly served seem to come to him in a vague fog or are just plain false.

But for purposes that are largely a matter of conjecture, Daniel is elevated to the level of a prophet. Written evidence to the contrary is buried or obscured. To cover the traces of this with translations such as Psalms for "Writings" in Luke and "Psalms" for Mizmor at Psalms, the structure of the Old Testament as seen by those living in Christ's time is obscured in behalf of apocalyptic proponents' beliefs.

So, about those 2500 years or days...

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes, Rather than simply resigning myself to disagreeing with you, I thought further about the matter as I was reading some related material. In a book about MidEast archeology (Ebla) I ran into a discussion of similar Biblical controversies. The authors examined the arguments (Pro) for Moses having written the Penteteuch citing versus in the the OT and NT: Malachi 3:33, Nehemiah 8:1 and Luke quoting Christ himself 24:44. Each of these cases they simply cite "the Law of Moses". Now pay close attention to what Christ says in Luke, he speaks of the Law of Moses, the Prophets and Psalms.... What is meant here by the psalms? The title of this book in Hebrew is Mizmor. It is the first book of Writings. Psalms come from the Greek psalmas. What's my point. Josephus and Jesus were speaking of scriptures in the same manner! Aside from what Luke conveys here about Christ fulfilling the Scriptures, he has also revealed how they are supposed to be structured. And Daniel was part of Writings, not Prophets. I intend to discuss this further elsewhere. Hence, much of what has been done with the structure of the Bible by Christian groups has been to subordinate the Bible to objectives of their own.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes, The example you cite is one which I have trouble with and have written about considerably on this forum. Where to start on this one? Daniel seems to have a good eye for what is going on during the 160s BC and leading up to it. What the book "predicts" after that is contentious. But the book raises more questions than answers about the period in which it was supposedly written. Almost all references to kings, regents and princes are either dead wrong or full of anachronisms. Descriptions of Dariuses could be Darius I or Darius II, but "Darius the Mede"? If you have a copy of a Bible with chapter 14 of Daniel, note that it starts as follows: "When King Astyages joined his ancestors, Cyrus of Persia succeeded him." Bingo. There was no Darius the Mede by the time you get to the end of Daniel! "Daniel was very close to the king, who respected him more than any of his friends." These lines appear in the Septuagint and not in the Masoretic text, and the story that follows relies on less miracle and more detective work than any that preceded. Why it should not make the cut, while many Septuagint verses do, since that is what the Gospel writers referred their readers to, is something of a recent phenomenon. For centuries the deutero-canonical material was included in the King James as well as the Catholic bibles. But what this chapter does is undercut a lot of what precedes it. As I said elsewhere, read a fairly close translation of Thucydides and you will find that the Greeks claim they won the Battle of Marathon against the Medes. The year was 486 BC. Who was their king? Herodotus was even more explicit. He calls Xerxes "king of the Medes in book 9 of the histories. It is not that Darius does not exist in history. The author of Daniel got his ancient history from the Seleccid greeks and he got it half digested. He screws up all over the place. The Hebrew Bible never said that he was a prophet and the only place in the Septuagint where he was mentioed was in Maccabees. Catastrophes heaped on the world such as the 607 BC and 2500 years are the result of Apocalyptic Christians promoting Daniel to a level he was seen at originally and recognized already by many as a late addition to the canon. In Chapter 9, his testimony,even if true, violates the criteria for being a prophet as defined by Josephus in Contra Apion. He cries out there that his people remain in bondage in Babylon, but they had been given permission to leave decades ago.

27

Beside reading Thucydides the author of Daniel read Herodotus

by kepler in

over a year ago, i engaged in a discussion on a similar topic.

it was titled, "has anyone read thucydides beside the author of daniel?".

since my annotated new jerusalem bible mentions a number of reasons why the text was probably written largely in the 2nd century bce to address events happening in that period ( the seleucid occupation and desecration of the temple), i was aware of a number of arguments for the case.

kepler

Some updates on this matter based on reading two books.

1. "Persian Fire" by Tom Holland, written in 2006 is a digestible recapitulation of the Persian Wars with the Greek city states in the 480s and 470s BC. Holland re-arranges the account of Herodotus to allow other connections to be made. I have not checked all of them, but I think he ran aground on an important one: the relationship of Astyages King of Media, Cyrus the future king of Persia, lieutenants of both individuals - and the subsequent King Darius I.

In book one of the Histories, Herodotus relates how Astyages, inspired by a dream directs Harpargos to murder the young prince Cyrus. Regarding the dream, Astyages had consulted magi on this matter.Harpagos, having failed in that, Astyages kidnaps his son, butchers him and serves him in a stew to his father. Harpargos continued to serve Astyages but stewed as well in his own anger. He worked tirelessly in behalf of Cyrus and confronted Astyages after Cyrus captured him in the field of battle. Subsequently he served Cyrus as a general in campaigns through Asia Minor.

In Herodotus, I can find no indication that Harpagos changed his name to Hystapes and became the father of Darius. Whether this is an error of Holland's, a pet theory or the tale of another ancient writer, I cannot say. But I certainly cannot find evidence to support this theory.

2.) "Ebla" right now appears to be the more interesting of the two books, though it might not be appropriately named. Archeologists and scholars of ancient Jewish life, Chaim Bermant and Michael Weitzman collaborate here, describing Italian work on Tell Mardikh in Syria near Aleppo and the background surrounding it. Ebla is rich in ancient cuneiform, best described for now as Proto-Canaanite from the 3rd millenium BC. Somewhat like the Dead Sea Scrolls, Ebla created excitement and anticipation for the public, especially with regard to the Pentateuch and possible connections to this hardly known city ( a few brief references in the OT). The third chapter of the book gives a broad 25 page survey of Biblical controversies over presumed anachronisms, sources such as J, E, P and D, the tribal heritages, contradictions, etc. Arguments posted are pro and con for "inerrancy" for lack of better term.

The fourth chapter was devoted to "Cuneiform without Tears" - and this is an exciting history of how the codes were cracked, starting with ancient Persian, largely off the testimony of Darius I in Behistun, Iran.

Rawlinson, a British army attache to the Persian government, cracked the code by comparing the genealogy provided by Herodotus, another tablet with a suspected list of kings ( Darius, Xerxes, king, king of kings, Persia... etc.). We finally get in English translation "Darius the Great King, King of Kings, King of countries, son of Hystaspes, an Achaemenian..."

Herodotus and Darius appear to be in agreement about both who his father was. Both Herodotus and Thucydides identify Medes as the invaders of Greece in 486 BC and Darius was king. Herodotus, as said above, calls out Xerxes as king of the Medes.

Now try to get Daniel to match like that with anything - save for predicting a perpetually receding event.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Well, I've got some answers of my own. They are Old Testament, but Deutero-Canonical.

It depends on how you regar"Wisdom". or Wisdom of Solomon, an Alexandrian composition probably predating Philo and drawing from Septuagint texts.

From Chapter 2:

There is a discussion of life as the godless see it and how the believer should be tested and put to torture to see if God will intervene. In answer:

23. For God created human beings to be immortal, he made them as an image of his own nature, Death came into the world only through the Devil's envy, as those who belong to him find to their own cost.

From Chapter 3:

1. But the souls of the upright are in the hands of God, and no torment can touch them.

2. To the unenlightened they appear to die, their departure was regarded as a disaster,

3. their leaving us like an annihilation, but they are at peace.

4. If, as it seemed to us, they suffered punishment, their hope was rich with immortality. slight was their correction, great will their blessings be.

God was putting them to the test and has proved them worthy to be with him; he has tested them like gold in a furnace and accepted them as a pefect burnt offering.

...

10. But the godless will be duly punished for their punished for their reasoning ...

--------------------

I open the floor to comments on this one. But it looks to me like the Deutero-Canonical explains New Testament concepts better than the canonical Old Testament. This is an Alexandrian/Hellenic/Jewish outlook not far afield from that of Paul and perhaps one or two of the Gospel writers. It also puts the description of Josephus of the Essenes in perspective.

106

NEW BIBLE

by The Searcher in

the following is part of an email from a retired district overseer in the states.

(source private).

"the new bible will be released at the agm and i understand only two versions will be printed from now on.

kepler

Beside the text of the books of the revised NWT, there will probably be some appendix material such as historical time tables.

Beside its obsession with 607 BC, the NWT provides a "Table of the Books of the Bible" right after Revelations. The table names the book, who wrote and when. Amazing, one would think, just to know. But the marvels go further. For example:

Moses wrote Genesis in 1513 BC in one sitting, and addresses Deuteronomy about 40 years later, providing the last chapters after he died and was buried in an undisclosed location. In that same year of 1473, he reportedly also wrote "Job", about a period in the life of someone who was NOT one of his people, but was a successful camel caravan owner who lived for 140 years... Must have had a hankering to write a poem on the plains of Moab. An anonymous one at that. I wonder what alphabet he used for all this.

Joshua wrote Joshua in Canaan. I guess he wrote in the proto-Hebrew Canaanite alphabet. He repeats himself sometimes though.

Daniel wrote "aniel" in 536 BV... Funny. I always thought the chapters were kind of choppy, considering he did it all in one sitting. In chapter 9, he said he was writing much later. Check the Darius he mentions. It's not the first. And all those deals with the satraps. Two different languages. first and third person.

Peter wrote his epistles in Babylon. He said so. Wonder why? I thought it was supposed to have been destroyed forever. Isaiah said so. He wrote this in 732 BC and predicted Cyrus would take Babylon. But he never got around to telling Daniel! And we never hear of Nabonidus from Daniel. Nor of Cyrus. That's just in chapter 14 in the Septuagint. Kind of embarassing since Daniel forgets about Darius the Mede there.

And, O yeah. No doubt about the date and authorship of the other NT books. Paul just had to have written Hebrews and the same John wrote Gospels, epistles and Revelations. The only author labeled "Apostle". No doubt about it. Paul had to have written Hebrews too, though for some reason he did not sign his name this time.

All these little dogmatic nips and tucks help to make a 607 BC based pyramid scheme possible.

Let's see if there are any revisions there.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Quarterback,

That's a good spot. Searching it down, Martha spoke in John 11:23-24. But what we've got is another data point. The Old Testament does not make this idea abundantly clear. And I offered Josephus to show how a contemporary of John broke official beliefs down. If Martha answered as she did, then there could very well have been a widespread fourth point of view, but there remains the question of where it came from. From Christ's teachings alone? From the preachings of others? From a sect not as yet mentioned? Or a different Essene viewpoint?

Then, of course, if Lazarus was a demonstration of what was to happen to us after we die ( the text says that he was dead), then what became of Lazarus after that? There would be a lesson there too.

With regard to the Essenes, for instance, do we know of their beliefs from other sources? Or do we pay any attention to them at all other than for the fact that they held some of our most ancient copies of Scriptures and related texts? What Josephus says about them does not seem to contradict the archeological evidence - unless someone has proof otherwise. And what's more, when it suits, people of very orthodox beliefs are perfectly willing to cite Josephus when it suits their purposes. After all, since Jewish Antiquities paraphrases the OT, then both must be true, no? Furthermore, how do you distinguish one ancient Jewish writer from another in matters of secular or spiritual authority? How is Josephus distinct from Ezra or Nehemiah? Does he not give us the definition of OT canonicity that will be cited forever?

Hannes,

Still devoting some time to the Genesis question. Since there are questions about apparent anachronisms in Genesis and the other books, it is easy to shoot from the hip and dismiss everything. But I think it deserves more investigation at the least. Even if some of the inferences hold water, there are still mysteries enough to keep us occupied - E.g., Just who was Moses?

This admittedly does not directly advance the question about eternal life views, but I did look at some other sources for accounts or pictures of camels. Some fundamentalists say that there are pictures of camels in Egyptian sites, but I have not yet located them in my books about Egypt. The earliest renditions I found of camels on the wall, so to speak, were with Shalmaneezar III of Assyria circa 825 BC. The recent book on Egypt by Toby Wilkonson sayst that Darius I (522-486) introduced camels into Egypt during the Persian occupation in the midst of civil engineering projects such as the building of the original Suez canal. The camels were brought in from Bactrian and Arabian provinces and improved communications with the principal oases. Climate was drying out vs. a millenium earlier.

Perhaps it could be said that this was a "re-introduction" of camels since Abraham's time. But there are other anachronisms to deal with as well. Philistines at Gerar in Genesis is another problem since the Sea Peoples invasion into Egyptian territories is a feature of the 12th century. Explanations are given for individual anachronisms, but when anachronisms are taken together their existence argues persuasively for a late date of writing.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes:

Regarding camels, what shall we make of the several reports in those documents that ended up in that collection we know as the Book of Genesis, to which Moses at best was redactor adding a few minor explanatory remarks? There are three accounts that come to my mind where camels were mentioned as an integral part of the lives of those 3rd and 2nd millenium B.C. people of the near east. Between the time of Abraham and Moses' days there is as far as I can see no need to doubt the existence of larger herds of camels. (But maybe this has not been questioned regarding the origin and time of the Book of Job).

-------------

Hannes,

Since you, I and either proponents or scoffers of camel caravans were not there in person, aside from the mentions in Genesis, we are faced with a matter for detective work. Since I brought up the matter with Job, I did look at some discussions about camels. As said before, camel herds existed, and some could even have been domesticated for consumption by non-Jewish nations, but when did the camel caravans start showing up in the regions between Egypt and Mesopotamia?

I did find one interesting Smithsonian archeological study: "Camel Caravans and Camel Pastoralists at Tell Jammeh", by Paul Wapnish. This was a southern Israel site (10 km south of Gaza) with animal remains going back to the second millenium BC. A twenty page report with plenty to examine, it is noteworthy that camel bone specimens started picking up after corresponding evidence for Assyrians present in the 9th century BC. Camel bones really took off in the segment labeled 675-600 BC. Largest sample was from the Babylonian and Persian periods.

Of course, this is just one report on an interesting topic. I would like to get back to this later with regard to Genesis.