Posts by kepler

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Quarterback,

That's a good spot. Searching it down, Martha spoke in John 11:23-24. But what we've got is another data point. The Old Testament does not make this idea abundantly clear. And I offered Josephus to show how a contemporary of John broke official beliefs down. If Martha answered as she did, then there could very well have been a widespread fourth point of view, but there remains the question of where it came from. From Christ's teachings alone? From the preachings of others? From a sect not as yet mentioned? Or a different Essene viewpoint?

Then, of course, if Lazarus was a demonstration of what was to happen to us after we die ( the text says that he was dead), then what became of Lazarus after that? There would be a lesson there too.

With regard to the Essenes, for instance, do we know of their beliefs from other sources? Or do we pay any attention to them at all other than for the fact that they held some of our most ancient copies of Scriptures and related texts? What Josephus says about them does not seem to contradict the archeological evidence - unless someone has proof otherwise. And what's more, when it suits, people of very orthodox beliefs are perfectly willing to cite Josephus when it suits their purposes. After all, since Jewish Antiquities paraphrases the OT, then both must be true, no? Furthermore, how do you distinguish one ancient Jewish writer from another in matters of secular or spiritual authority? How is Josephus distinct from Ezra or Nehemiah? Does he not give us the definition of OT canonicity that will be cited forever?

Hannes,

Still devoting some time to the Genesis question. Since there are questions about apparent anachronisms in Genesis and the other books, it is easy to shoot from the hip and dismiss everything. But I think it deserves more investigation at the least. Even if some of the inferences hold water, there are still mysteries enough to keep us occupied - E.g., Just who was Moses?

This admittedly does not directly advance the question about eternal life views, but I did look at some other sources for accounts or pictures of camels. Some fundamentalists say that there are pictures of camels in Egyptian sites, but I have not yet located them in my books about Egypt. The earliest renditions I found of camels on the wall, so to speak, were with Shalmaneezar III of Assyria circa 825 BC. The recent book on Egypt by Toby Wilkonson sayst that Darius I (522-486) introduced camels into Egypt during the Persian occupation in the midst of civil engineering projects such as the building of the original Suez canal. The camels were brought in from Bactrian and Arabian provinces and improved communications with the principal oases. Climate was drying out vs. a millenium earlier.

Perhaps it could be said that this was a "re-introduction" of camels since Abraham's time. But there are other anachronisms to deal with as well. Philistines at Gerar in Genesis is another problem since the Sea Peoples invasion into Egyptian territories is a feature of the 12th century. Explanations are given for individual anachronisms, but when anachronisms are taken together their existence argues persuasively for a late date of writing.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes:

Regarding camels, what shall we make of the several reports in those documents that ended up in that collection we know as the Book of Genesis, to which Moses at best was redactor adding a few minor explanatory remarks? There are three accounts that come to my mind where camels were mentioned as an integral part of the lives of those 3rd and 2nd millenium B.C. people of the near east. Between the time of Abraham and Moses' days there is as far as I can see no need to doubt the existence of larger herds of camels. (But maybe this has not been questioned regarding the origin and time of the Book of Job).

-------------

Hannes,

Since you, I and either proponents or scoffers of camel caravans were not there in person, aside from the mentions in Genesis, we are faced with a matter for detective work. Since I brought up the matter with Job, I did look at some discussions about camels. As said before, camel herds existed, and some could even have been domesticated for consumption by non-Jewish nations, but when did the camel caravans start showing up in the regions between Egypt and Mesopotamia?

I did find one interesting Smithsonian archeological study: "Camel Caravans and Camel Pastoralists at Tell Jammeh", by Paul Wapnish. This was a southern Israel site (10 km south of Gaza) with animal remains going back to the second millenium BC. A twenty page report with plenty to examine, it is noteworthy that camel bone specimens started picking up after corresponding evidence for Assyrians present in the 9th century BC. Camel bones really took off in the segment labeled 675-600 BC. Largest sample was from the Babylonian and Persian periods.

Of course, this is just one report on an interesting topic. I would like to get back to this later with regard to Genesis.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes,

I'd say keep going. You're doing fine so far with contributions. I suspect that the sort of passages we are looking for to shed light on this matter are not easy to track down simply by checking a concordance.

Aunt Connie,

Not sure I fully understood your reply. To sleep better though, I'll just assume everything is OK.

If it's any help regarding sources: I probably first came across the descriptions of the three parties several years ago when I slogged through "The Jewish War" in a Penguin paperback. Then, when for one reason or another, I went looking for what I read, I searched in vain in "Antiquities of the Jews". A lot of paraphrase of OT stories with some asides, but nothing as telling that I can recall. "Against Apion" had a description of how canonical systems of books are made - at least among the author's kindred. Reading the text, one would think that the conventions were long standing- but I believe the conventions were in the lifetime of the author Josephus at a place called Jamnia (sp?).

"We have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another; bout onely 22 books, which contain the records of all past times, and which are rightly believed in. And of these, five belong to Moses, which contain the laws and the tradition of the origin of mankind till his death for a period of nearly three thousand years. From the death of Moses until the reign of Artaxerxes, king of Persia who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets who wrote down the things that were done in their times in 13 books. The remaining books contain hymns to God and precept Artaxerxes to our times all things have indeed been written down bur are not esteemed worthy of a like authority because the exact successionof the prophets was wanting..."

And now I take you to Daniel 9:1.

"It was the first year of Darius, son of Artexerxes, a Mede by race who assumed the throne of Chaldea..."

The author of Daniel has discredited himself in the eyes of Jospephus as a prophet - as can be seen in the structure of the TaNaKh. Never mind that there is plenty other evidence of 2nd century writing under Greek suppression and tutelage. If you want an explanation for who Darius the Mede was, look to Thucydides who claims that the Greeks defeated the Medes at Marathon in 486 BC. Who was the king? Darius I of Persia, inventor of the satrapy. But the Darius to whom Daniel (II) refers in chapter 9 comes even later. Chapter 14 tries to rectify the history. Included in the Septuagint, it has been recently dropped in King James versions.

I no longer wonder why.

So, anyway, Psalms, Proverbs, Ruth, Lamentations, Job, Esther, Ecclesiastes, Chronicles, Ezra/Nehamiah, Song of Songs and Daniel are all relegated to "Writings".

Note that Josephus did not attribute Job to Moses, not that I am saying that he should. Researching the angle that Job was a Camel merchant or rancher, I did look at some articles about camel caravans. One on line archeological report indicated that camel bones at at least one stopping point on the route between Egypt and Mesopotamia in Judean vicinity had hardly any camel remains until the 6th century. Wikipedia reports indicate that the camel caravan trade picked up with the Assyrians building forts across Arabia. They were domesticated further and in Arabia east centuries earlier, but were exploited in the East Med region in Neo-Babylonian times.

... So are the ideas of Job introduced into Bible from 7th century peoples of the Assyrian empire? What clues I have had from examining Greek writings thus far have been serendipitous. The problem of Job's origin seems like a tougher nut to crack. It's not a history, not a collection of sayings or songs and not a collection of rants or prophecies.

AC, you also indicated that a wider net should be cast when speaking about beliefs of life after death - or what happens after the end of life. I did not mean to say that Josephus had covered all the bases. And, I confess, that it sounds plausible that reincarnation beliefs that developed further east could have been brought back by Greeks or made their way west more directly with trade. If your Hellenic or Roman studies shed some light on this matter, please tell.

As a kid I remember reading one of Robert Heinlein's books about space travelers gifted with longevity, Methuselah's Children. Amid a quick getaway from earth headed for the stars ( all right...), I remember one of the onboard doctors lamenting that he had not brought along a carp or two to observe for several decades or centuries, because ( circa 1943) he wasn't sure that they died natural deaths. Have we had enough time of our own ( or data) now to settle this one? Or should this be cited as an argument in favor of a hybrid type of return?

Kepler

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

From "Lost":

...Before Christianity, before the Bible, before Jesus, before the Greeks, (going back 1,000's of years) in every ancient culture, there was some form of worship and belief. There was a belief in an afterlife. There was belief in God/gods. There was a belief in demons/angels/spirits. There are many stories of supernatural beliefs, myths, folklore, etc. There are many flood stories.In short, there was a pre-existing belief stucture in place, for a long time.

What I ask myself, is why.Why do these things exist, if there was no foundation for such things. Also, why cannot we explain an inherent belief in God. there must be a reason for it.

---

Lost,

I think your characterization of the human condition back then was partly true. But the examples I am finding from reading about ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Israel, Persia and Judea is that they all had their own versions. The people in Mesopotamia had gods, but they were sceptical about immortality. Check it out. The Egyptians, who had gods as well, seemed to take immortality as a given and spared no expense in preparing for it - unless we are misled by the accounts of the pyramids. Also, some features of Greek or Persian beliefs seem either similar to ones that grew up in Judea or else had some influence on them.

But when we get an accounts such as Josephus, who is giving us a snapshot of the later first century AD, we do not see unanimous beliefs among the Jews.

Cold Steel, for example, said that the variety of belief illustrates some kind of apostasy. I am not clear as to which ones he meant. Maybe all. But as I read the accounts of Jewish behavior (Roman province of Judea) prior to the war, the passive resistance to Roman demands for "graven images" of Emperors and gods in Jerusalem, I don't see how that holds water.

It is also often argued that disaster befalling humanity - after the fact - is a punishment from heaven. Josephus did not provide that as an explanation so far as I can tell, anymore than say, Churchill offered that as an explanation for WWII.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Ding,

Thanks! That's a good verse to consider for this topic. When I wrote back to Hannes above, I said that I understood the book of Job to address the question ( somewhere) about why bad things happen to good people. You and Hannes have spotted verses which specifically address this matter in terms of an afterlife.

Now, the question remains for me: Is this a different ( or more explicit ) view than the majority of the Old Testament? If it is, then this might mean that Job has a distinctly different origin than the bulk of the OT. Since Job is not identified as an Israelite, then perhaps it is something that originated elsewhere. But from whom? Since Job owned herds of camels, I am forced to wonder what he was doing with them. If they were not for caravans, it should be noted that they are regarded as non-kosher in Leviticus 11:4. In Central Asia and Arabia, camels might have been domesticated, but camels and pyramids are an anachronism courtesy of cigarette packages. They weren't there from time immemorial. In other words, I don't think Moses churned Job out in his spare time.

106

NEW BIBLE

by The Searcher in

the following is part of an email from a retired district overseer in the states.

(source private).

"the new bible will be released at the agm and i understand only two versions will be printed from now on.

kepler

The last one was, by all internal accounts, PERFECT!

But this one will be even better!

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

mP,

Again, in your responses you are attributing to me several things which were said by someone else: Cold Steel.

Overall, I'd say that you are raising interesting points. But many are just as much off the cuff as some of my own generalizations I am using to illustrate a point of view, not necessarily a closed case. A closed case needs supporting evidence.

Yes, there are comparisons of other middle eastern belief systems with those of the ancient Jews. We've just made some comparisons with Egyptian and Mesopotamian cultures. If Judea is a passive absorber, then score afterlife and one God from the Egypt; score for a lack of an afterlife and a disc world surrounded by water cosmology for Mesopotamia. Yet the coinciding features in Noah's flood in Genesis and that in Gilgamesh are much less detailed than those say of the text of Mark and Matthew. And there is always the possibility of an idea originating independently in the culture we are assuming is borrowing from its neighbors. After all, Noah is a very different personality than Gilgamesh. As a result, it is both difficult to demonstrate the cross-over from one culture to another - and to get a scholar to commit himself to such an idea in publications, especially with peer reviews. . Yes, there was a great flood in both stories - but otherwise...?

However, starting with the data point that Josephus identifies three belief systems about immortality among his countrymen and then we compare widespread Christian beliefs supposedly derived from these... Maybe it is worth examining the details here.

106

NEW BIBLE

by The Searcher in

the following is part of an email from a retired district overseer in the states.

(source private).

"the new bible will be released at the agm and i understand only two versions will be printed from now on.

kepler

Hmmm.... Translations into other languages.

I wonder if they will translate it into Hebrew and Greek?

Or did they do that already with the NWT?

I don't know much Greek, but enough to distinguish that a stake is a"palovki", not a "stavros". "Stavros" is a cross.

Translating the NWT back into the original is like unscrambling eggs.

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

mP,

Just for the record, several of your replies were actually in response to things written by "Cold Steel".

Your last remark is quite interesting. Pharisee and Farsi are not necessarily coincidentally similar names. I've tried looking into this myself, but did not come up with anything. Very few sources will commit to saying that any ancient Hebrew beliefs came from anywhere beside their scriptures. As an assumption going in, Persians at the time of Cyrus were going over to Zoroastrianism in droves. I don't think Cyrus made his declarations of return in Azura Mazda's name, but Darius the First swore his testimonies in that manner. But if one accepts Zoroastrianism, one also is accepting more duality in the cosmos than is revealed in the Penteteuch or perhaps the whole OT: demons or devils. On the other hand, Hades is a Greek term. Combine with demons and you have "hell".

Regarding the veracity of Josephus, I find this an interesting anecdote. In chapter 7, a few pages after the description of the three "parties" and their beliefs, Josephus continues to describe reasons for the coming war. One was an increase in banditry; another was roving "zealots" who spread new beliefs and had large followings. At about 40 AD there was one led by an "Egyptian" which camped out with supposedly "30,000" followers on the Mount of Olives before Roman guards were called in to disperse them. In Acts 21:38, Paul was mistaken for this man, but his numbers of followers were marked ( more reasonably?) at 4000. A number of crowds and casualty lists recorded by Josephus sound similarly off by a magnitude or two. But there are differences in marking an event such as armies clashing that day and taking a tabulation of the size of the forces arrayed and the numbers fallen. Seldom have ancient historians underestimated these figures.

Cold Steel,

Quoting:

"Your best bet for ascertaining what the ancient Christians believed about the afterlife can perhaps be found with more accuracy through Christian writings which once were considered scriptural by some Christian sects, but not others. Relying on Josephus’ explanation of what the Jews, which were in a high state of apostasy, believed most likely is not pertinent to what the Christians believed."

I am aware of a number of indications of what ancient and present day Christians believed and believe about the after life. There are indications from the epistles that those anticipating Christ's return did not think they needed to resurrect because the return was so imminent. And by the time Revelations was written and read, those beliefs morphed further with a New Jerusalem descending. Yet all the same, if John of Patmos was writing at the same time as Josephus was writing, Josephus seems unaware of these beliefs, though he provides great detail about what happened to the Old Jerusalem.

I should also add that the origin of a eternal life in a restored paradise Earth still sounds strange to me considering other direct Gospel quotes such as John 18:36 ( "My kingdom is not of this world") and Luke 23:38 ( "This day you will be with me in paradise").

What is difficult to ascertain though, is high to evaluate a "high state of apostasy" among a people who we have yet to determine what their beliefs were or should have been, whether Christians or Jews. As you say later with the incident in Mark chapter 12, we are relying on Josephus for a notion of Sadducee beliefs. Mark has not been written yet, but the events are unrolling. If the Sadducees were trying to entrap Christ about his teachings, then they must have heard about them somewhere else. As a matter of fact, from what we have related in Mark about the resurrection, the story ends rather abruptly for our purposes.

You examined some other church writers, but I am afraid that I will have to look at and reply to those discussions later.

Thank you both for your consideration of these matters.

Kepler

39

Josephus in "the Jewish War" remarks on the nature of eternal life

by kepler in

there is a corresponding topic on science and the immortal soul that reminded me of something that i had encountered in the 7th chapter of josephus's history of the roman campaigns in judea, "the jewish war".

one version of this is available in penguin classics, for example.

"among the jews are three schools of thought, whose adherents are called pharisees, sadducees and essenes respectively...".

kepler

Hannes,

Saw your note this morning. Thanks for pointing out chapter 14 of Job. As a result I did read over it and probably not for the last time. And rather than say, "Well, there's Hezekiah in Isaiah( 38: 9-12) and Job in 14 Job. That's 2...", I would like to ask if you or anyone else would like to add some more examples? The mother of the seven brothers in II Maccabees chapter 7 is one that comes to mind, though this is considered by most "deuterocanonical" at best.

Erroneously or not, I had come to regard Job as an OT explanation of why bad things can happen to good people. This implies that the readers of a certain era were probably thinking of covenants with the Lord in terms of a place on earth, prosperity and things that Job once had and regained. The prose introduction and summary seem to indicate those things were restored - even his children. So some editor of the inner kernel of poetry must have bought into the rewards of serving the Lord were in this life after all. Job in chapter 14 appears, at least, to raise the issue.

Elsewhere, the wisdom books such as Ecclesiastes should be examined in this regard as well. Are they speaking of final rest in peace with the Lord in eternity or stoicism in this life?

mP,

Does that second letter stand for Provocateur? Does Josephus saying something automatically make it a lie? Speaking on JW-net, I would think that what would stand out in his three divisions of Jewish thinking circa 65 AD was the fact that none of the descriptions seem to be congruent with a bodily resurrection on a Paradise Earth.

Does anyone get it? None of the Jewish groups were contemplating a return to Eden! And if you were to believe Josephus - true - they were even thinking of reincarnation. And the Essenes point of view, for which we have little other non Josephus information about save Essene library remains - our source thought they got their ideas from the Greeks. Well, the Greeks had been there all right. As had the Jews gone into a Diaspora about the Hellenic world. And there was the LXX...

Frequently, I had been told by JWs that the troubles Christianity had had was due to its submission to Greek influences. It had somehow gotten away from its roots.

Really?