Point understood now about caterpillars and butterflies. But what I meant was a complete transformation: from a form that we once were to something quite else. And I believe that as far as Biblical citations go, you could argue for either a very familiar form or something that transcends what we are. Or perhaps nothing.
kepler
JoinedPosts by kepler
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Mark 8:36 "What profit a man to gain the whole world...
by kepler in... and lose his soul.
" when jws came to my house years ago to instruct me on "what the bible really teaches", i gathered from the text that doctrine made a distinction between humans and spirits such as angels.
the belief in a bodily resurrection made the notion of a soul either redundant or something that would be extinguished.
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kepler
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Mark 8:36 "What profit a man to gain the whole world...
by kepler in... and lose his soul.
" when jws came to my house years ago to instruct me on "what the bible really teaches", i gathered from the text that doctrine made a distinction between humans and spirits such as angels.
the belief in a bodily resurrection made the notion of a soul either redundant or something that would be extinguished.
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kepler
... and lose his soul." When JWs came to my house years ago to instruct me on "What the Bible Really Teaches", I gathered from the text that doctrine made a distinction between humans and spirits such as angels. The belief in a bodily resurrection made the notion of a soul either redundant or something that would be extinguished. And then there were various citations: some books of the Bible seemed to suggest that this was the only life and assumed that the Lord's pleasure with individuals was the fact that they had lived long lives or were rewarded with such. In some OT books the notion that there could be a resurrection never ( at least so far as the individual book narrative was concerned) entered the picture.
In fact from a contemporary standpoint, it might be interesting to contrast the writings or beliefs of some Israel's neighbors on these matters. Egyptians seemed to favor an eternity after death and build accommodations for their thereafter; Mesopotamians, you live and then you die. Persians and Zoroastrians in the time of Cyrus were another kettle of fish, but difficult to document.
Centuries after Christ, the Apostle's Creed speaks of the" resurrection of the body and life everlasting" - and Jehovah Witness lore seems to extrapolate on that to such a degree that one could wonder if pioneers are on neighborhood surveys for that morrow. Mark is also the Gospel where Jesus in 12:18-27 says:
25 "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."
This suggests that somehow we are to be transformed like caterpillars into butterflies.
As to what glimpses we might have had into what that might be like - from the Bible, from medicine, from incidents in history or legend, near death accounts - we all have to judge for ourselves. Yet paradoxically, our conscious existence emerges from somewhere - and then it departs the body in which it was harbored. If it were to be extinguished like a candle as the tract WTBRT suggests, then there is still the problem of how it got lit in the first place. Most physical processes have some sort of conservation within an enclosure. We don't really understand the enclosure our consciousness is in. But if we take away a picture from the Bible or related texts, it is not as clear as sermons might suggest.
Thus far, I have concentrated on the sayings in Mark, but there could be some variations not only from Old Testament to New, but also from each Gospel perspective. In Matthew 5:5, it is said that the "Meek shall inherit the earth." That's not conditioned on losing the soul but ... being "meek." Yet does that imply a different type of return than the one envisioned in Mark?
If all this is consistent, then how?
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Oddest front covers on Watchtower or Awake
by usualusername1 inin my comedy i want to show the audience a large version of some weird front covers from the watchtower or awake.. do you have any suggestions?.
cheers.
paul.
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kepler
That flannel shirt on the eternal terrorist scourge of January 8th, 1987.... Haven't I seen that before?
Wasn't that part of the Frederick Franz wardrobe... er.. collection?
Scariest thing about those guys is their presumed ambidexterity. The artist probably heard something about asymmetric threat and went on from there....
Then I suppose after offering up "Jive" ( in 1975) and should you dig it, what do you suppose WT concluded?
Was it supposed to be music or having a vacation in Jamaica?
Did they have any idea what they were talking about?
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NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?
by Counter-Watchtower indoes jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?
because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!
and take a lot of time!.
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kepler
David Jay,
Thank you as well for the background and analysis.
Where I live, beside the issues raised by JW teachings or practices, there are considerable number of discussions that arise due to Christian evangelical interpretations of things originating in Hebrew scripture or Judaic practices. Some of these things are obviously pursued with great enthusiasm, but through something of a prism. To illustrate, I have heard that the World Wide Church of God used to celebrate the Beginning of the Year ( Rosh Hashanah) as the Feast of Trumpets. My point is not so much as to whether it is observed correctly or not but that Christians involved in drawing inspiration from the OT would probably be surprised at or unaware of how the observance is understood, as it were, down the street.
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NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?
by Counter-Watchtower indoes jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?
because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!
and take a lot of time!.
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kepler
Earnest,
In answer to your question, I did a little digging.
Not being a specialist in either Middle English or Greek ( though I've spent time at both modern and ancient from time in the country and time with texts) I would say that we have digressed more from Middle English than the modern demotic Greek has from the Koine.
In fact, I am not sure that a Greek version of the NWT exists.
But still, here is the notion that New York based translators working from a collection of English translations add a theological insertion here and there and process it all back into passable Greek. What does this foreign intrusion provide a Greek Orthodox Christian with his own Bible already notated by nearly 2000 years of commentary.
In English, the NWT does not retain the language of the King James - and I don't mean that as a compliment. Unless a new edited edition of Canterbury Tales were written for a comic book, an effort would be taken to retain the verse.
It does not devote much effort toward the original OT verse. The verse and meter were there in the original Hebrew, but there is no grasp of it in the NWT. How was that faithful to the original?
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NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?
by Counter-Watchtower indoes jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?
because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!
and take a lot of time!.
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kepler
How is the NWT translated into Greek different from ... Well, the Greek?
Reminds me of a book written by a Russian dissident, Vladimir Voinovich, titled Moscow 2042. Instead of walking into an ordinary travel agency in Munich of 1982, he ended up in a time travel one as well. Originally, he wanted to see what Moscow would be like 50 years in the future, but that flight was already fully booked. So, anyway, he gets on board the 60 year in the future flight and arrives to be met by Intourist travel guides and interpreters. They knew he was coming. And every time he opened his mouth to speak in Russian, the intrepreters would yell out the same thing like an echo. He asked them why they were doing that when it was clear that he could speak for himself. The reply: "Every word you say has to be interpreted in context."
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Conversation with an Exorcist
by TerryWalstrom instarbucks exorcist______________.
location exterior : the patio of starbuckstime: 9 amcast:lou : media / news analyst, religious fundamentalistterry: gadfly, writer /crow apologist, big mouth know-it-alledgar the crow: spawn of satan________________.
our scene begins with two men at separate tables working on their laptops.lou is a man of about 60. he recently moved from new york to texas to start his own videography business.
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kepler
Egad, Mr. Johnson. Boswell couldn't have set the scene better.
...Have you thought about doing a dictionary?
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The Great Pyramid and the Flood of Noah
by TerryWalstrom inthe great pyramid and the flood of noah.
_________________________________if your world view rests firmly upon the foundation of bible accuracy matching the reality of history, sooner or later you’ll crash into the question of when the great pyramid was built.why?let’s see why…2 peter 3:5-6 complete jewish bible (cjb).
5 but, wanting so much to be right about this, they overlook the fact that it was by god’s word that long ago there were heavens, and there was land which arose out of water and existed between the waters, 6 and that by means of these things the world of that time was flooded with water and destroyed.________________________________________________.
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kepler
It occurs to me that the next time the doorbell rings at the press of a couple of JWs, I should have a couple of
Bible verses on hand to discuss the doctrine of inerrancy:
But first I will ask if they believe that the Earth revolves around the sun.
If, yes, I will point out the following citations:
Psalm 93:1
Psalm 96:10
1 Chronicles 16:30
which include text stating that "the world is firmly established, it cannot be moved."In the same manner,Psalm 104:5 says, "the Lord set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved." Further, Ecclesiastes1:5 states that "And the sun rises and sets and returns to its place."
And did I mention Joshua? Joshua cites another book which is lost to us that the Sun was stopped in its
track ABOUT the Earth.
It is not argued by evangelists and fundamentalists that the Old Testament is further divided by Judaism into
Law, Prophets and Writings. And that Writings such as Psalms, Chronicles and Ecclesiastes have lower
hierarchy in terms of belief than do the Law (Genesis) or Prophets. It is argued that every iota of what is written has to be taken as literal.
Well, here is another instance - for which Galileo was forced to retract his stated beliefs because...
The 17th century Protestant theologians thought they were off the hook. Really?
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The Great Pyramid and the Flood of Noah
by TerryWalstrom inthe great pyramid and the flood of noah.
_________________________________if your world view rests firmly upon the foundation of bible accuracy matching the reality of history, sooner or later you’ll crash into the question of when the great pyramid was built.why?let’s see why…2 peter 3:5-6 complete jewish bible (cjb).
5 but, wanting so much to be right about this, they overlook the fact that it was by god’s word that long ago there were heavens, and there was land which arose out of water and existed between the waters, 6 and that by means of these things the world of that time was flooded with water and destroyed.________________________________________________.
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kepler
By the way, dug around a little more.
The kmt supposed means "black earth" or "black soil" as opposed to the red earth or soil of the desert.
From the standpoint of Ancient Egyptian, Egypt is on a river and it is the Nile.
That Egypt is Misra in Arabic is likely a boomerang effect of the succession of scriptures, links between
Hebrew and Arabic holy writ.
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The Great Pyramid and the Flood of Noah
by TerryWalstrom inthe great pyramid and the flood of noah.
_________________________________if your world view rests firmly upon the foundation of bible accuracy matching the reality of history, sooner or later you’ll crash into the question of when the great pyramid was built.why?let’s see why…2 peter 3:5-6 complete jewish bible (cjb).
5 but, wanting so much to be right about this, they overlook the fact that it was by god’s word that long ago there were heavens, and there was land which arose out of water and existed between the waters, 6 and that by means of these things the world of that time was flooded with water and destroyed.________________________________________________.
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kepler
Wake Me Up:
Interesting comparison of two illustrations. For my part I notice that the text is in Arabic and that the illustration is a mirror image of the previous one ( I hesitate to say original). Since the scale of the image is larger, the tyrannosaurus is not only drowning but also cropped off the page. Consequently not a single scale (?) is visible.
Terry:
Somehow the Owen Gingrich account makes a lot of sense. Previously readings about the Great Pyramid, I would encounter discussions about passages supposedly built to allow a particular star to light a chamber at a given angle... Then I'd get stuck. What the blazes are they talking about - and especially with precession of the polar axis in the celestial sphere? And what kind of illumination are you going to get anyway?
This Gingrich discussion, so to speak, turns the tables.
To put it another way, we are at this epoch blessed with having a pole star setting atop the North Pole. Or wherever you are located in the northern hemisphere, above the horizon there is a star that remains fixed in the sky all night and all the other constellations revolve around it: Polaris. If it's 45 degrees above the north horizon, you are at 45 north latitude - and so forth.
And the Egyptians of the third millenium BC did not have this. They had something else, evidently, a North-South notch of two stars.
So navigation must have deteriorated between intervals such as this. Yet Ptolemy did a heck of a lot to fix this problem with the Almagest compilation of celestial knowledge.
Another matter: the name of Egypt. In Arabic Egypt is known as Misra, but in coptic it is known as kimi. If you further back the transliterations are a little more obscure:
kmt, and upper and lower Egypt along the Nile as t3 šmʕw and t3 mḥw respectively.
I would conclude that the Arabic word might be derived from the Hebrew, but the Egyptians had a name for their home that had little or nothing to do with the origin of the Hebrew word.
But then it should be noted that Polaris will slip out of position as the North Pole Star to return again just as it did after a 25,000 year cycle. And that opens up a whole new can of worms about dating things based on a host of ad hoc and cultic arguments...