Posts by kepler

5

Satan. Lucifer. Devil

by Doug Mason in

searchable.. full contents listing at the rear.. http://www.jwstudies.com/revolutions_part_5__satan__lucifer__devil.pdf .

doug.

Some of the twists of this story appear to be very linguistic. Maybe a year or more ago an acquaintance was telling me that the Pope and other clerics were engaged in a satanic rite. Why? Because they were singing the praises of Lucifer. I thought I'd check into it.

Sure enough there was an evangelical originated you tube segment of several high church officials in robes singing and "lucifer" could be made out in the song - which was latin and ancient enough to have been a gregorian chant. Which one of several possible songs it was I can't recall, but there are several likely suspects:

Perhaps it was ...

the Easter Proclamation prayer to God regarding the paschal candle:

Flammas eius lucifer matutinus inveniat: ille, inquam,

lucifer, qui nescit occasum.

Christus Filius tuus, qui, regressus ab inferis,

humano generi serenus illuxit, et vivit

et regnat in saecula saeculorum

("May this flame be found still burning by the Morning Star: the one Morning Star who never sets, Christ your Son, who, coming back from death's domain, has shed his peaceful light on humanity, and lives and reigns for ever and ever").

Since the Vulgate Latin translation of the Old Testament translates Isaiah 14 as Lucifer - which literally in Latin is' light bearer", the stage is set with the interpretations of descent, fall and satan, no matter what the Hebrew writer intended to convey about a bright morning star.

Circa 700 or 500 BC, I doubt very much that the scribes concerned with Isaiah knew that some of the bright evening and morning stars were the same object. And then Jerome himself might have had a "satanic" interpretation of the line. But elsewhere in the same latin translations, bearer of light denotes Jesus or John the Baptist. And consequently hymns of the church for centuries thereafter would speak in the same terms about Christ.

I tried to convince my acquaintance of as much with a latin dictionary and grammar, pointing out the noun and the verb, but it was a case of "No way!" -which was pretty much what the evangelistic you-tube propagandists were counting on.

While I believe that the accounts of the demonic in the Bible are mostly in the New Testament rather than the Old, I do believe that there is such a thing as evil and we face it every day. But in this controversy, who is tied closer in its orbit: you-tube propagandists who should know better or high church officials signing hymns?

Isaiah 14:12 -Quomodo cecidisti de cælo, Lucifer, qui mane oriebaris ? corruisti in terram, qui vulnerabas gentes ?

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in...

OR

“How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the. NKJV

2 Peter 1:19 Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem : cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernæ lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris :

So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets and you will be right to pay attention to it as a to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds.

But the most ironic commentary on this matter which I have found was that of Jean Calvin near 500 years ago. Calvin, like many before and after, for many books of both Old and New Testament, devoted a paragraph or two for every verse he encountered. Sometimes he sounded simply like a man of his time; other times he was profound.

12.How art thou fallen from heaven! Isaiah proceeds with the discourse which he had formerly begun as personating the dead, and concludes that the tyrant differs in no respect from other men, though his object was to lead men to believe that he was some god. He employs an elegant metaphor, by comparing him to Lucifer, and calls him the Son of the Dawn; (220) and that on account of his splendor and brightness with which he shone above others. The exposition of this passage, which some have given, as if it referred to Satan, has arisen from ignorance;

[ Got that? Protestantism in its infancy 500 years ago!]

for the context plainly shows that these statements must be understood in reference to the king of the Babylonians. But when passages of Scripture are taken up at random, and no attention is paid to the context, we need not wonder that mistakes of this kind frequently arise. Yet it was an instance of very gross ignorance, to imagine that Lucifer was the king of devils, and that the Prophet gave him this name. But as these inventions have no probability whatever, let us pass by them as useless fables.

Many of his Presbyterian successors, declaring their Calvinistic credentials on radio and podcasts, clearly have no idea of what he had said.

121

Did man really go to the moon?

by atomant in

l have researched this subject and come to the conclusion that no we didn't.what do others think?.

kepler

Watched the flight of Apollo 17 from the ropes in front of the Vertical Assembly Building. The thunder of the main engines rattled off the building a mile away behind our backs. Early in December listened to a talk with one of the three astronauts as he recounted his geological explorations. In geology classes examined the rocks.

Have run into astronauts at conferences from time to time and have worked with them as well. Same with cosmonauts. Later talked and worked with Russian engineers on the space station project. They worked as well on going to the moon and never doubted that we arrived. We acknowledged each others' accomplishments.

But I suppose you could say that even though they didn't reach the moon, except with robots, they must have been on the conspiracy too.

In participating in the Shuttle program, participated in the guidance, navigation and control design and formulation of the vehicle. That work meant going back to the Apollo work rather than start from scratch. In preparation for a return to the moon a dozen years or so back, again engaged in many calculations of the flight as well as some proposed layout of new craft. As far as the path between Earth and moon, what would once have been done on a main frame computer over night, I would sometimes be doing in a few minutes on a lap top, using some code adapted from other projects. When you do the calculations that way and aiming for an orbital capture or an entry return, you can appreciate the value of mid course corrections.

When the lunar flights were over some of the Apollo astronauts hung around to design, test and fly the Space Shuttle. I remember one of them who one day almost to my apartment house parking space, I accidentally almost ran over his dog.

On that particular night 45 years ago of Apollo 17s launch, you could see the first, second and third stage burns heading off to the east. The first stage burned orange, the second two burned white with the clouds of steam formed by hydrogen hydrogen fuel instead of kerosene when burned with LOX.

Watched the broadcast back to earth for hours and hours in real time.

There are images as well from US and other nation's lunar orbiters of where the spacecraft landed. Harrison Schmitt pointed them out in a photo in his talk.

Of course, you don't have to believe any of this. And I'm not going to tell you whether any of the lunar astronauts went to the moon or not.

28

Spacy question - ISS and gyros - what u think?

by MrRoboto in

lots of spacy questions lately so i'll add mine here.

theres a video of one of the guys on the international space station doing some experiments with a few portable cd players, using them as gyroscopes when turned on.

it was interesting to see.

kepler

This was originally about cd players acting as gyros, right?

There are a couple of ways you can look at gyro action.

Let's say you take the front wheel off of your bike. You hold it by its axel and you move it around. Say you hold wheel so the disk like form of it is parallel to the ground. Now twist it a little off that horizontal plane and see how it feels. There's some effort to twist, right? Now do the same thing while it is spinning and the twisting effort is harder. In effect the spinning wheel is stabilized in space. It's not heading off across the room, but it likes to stay oriented where it is.

Now another way to look at it is when you spin the CD up or down there is rotational force imparted to it, a torque. If the wheel or CD spins in one direction, then there is an equal and opposite force or torque in the other. Not having seen the video, but I suspect, that if the CDs start up and slow down, the astronaut or some attached object can be oriented in space.

If you know what how the CDs will behave, spin at a constant rate, speed up or slow down, then you can orient the player or an object attached to it. You can point it in a direction you want it like a camera suspended in the air.

But you should not get the object to move ACROSS the room by changing the spin rate, unless you can push off another object with the reactive torque converted into a force.

20

Sources of John's vivid imagery

by Doug Mason in

in common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.

as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.

1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.

kepler

Very interesting topic.

I just noticed on a recent comment a reference to the "seven planets" in astrology.

While there might be a current day reference to seven or eight, in ancient times no one was aware of Uranus, Neptune or Pluto. At that regard, I don't think seven was then connected to heaven.

Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn - Unless you count some evening and morning stars...

5

Mark 8:36 "What profit a man to gain the whole world...

by kepler in

... and lose his soul.

" when jws came to my house years ago to instruct me on "what the bible really teaches", i gathered from the text that doctrine made a distinction between humans and spirits such as angels.

the belief in a bodily resurrection made the notion of a soul either redundant or something that would be extinguished.

kepler

Point understood now about caterpillars and butterflies. But what I meant was a complete transformation: from a form that we once were to something quite else. And I believe that as far as Biblical citations go, you could argue for either a very familiar form or something that transcends what we are. Or perhaps nothing.

5

Mark 8:36 "What profit a man to gain the whole world...

by kepler in

... and lose his soul.

" when jws came to my house years ago to instruct me on "what the bible really teaches", i gathered from the text that doctrine made a distinction between humans and spirits such as angels.

the belief in a bodily resurrection made the notion of a soul either redundant or something that would be extinguished.

kepler

... and lose his soul." When JWs came to my house years ago to instruct me on "What the Bible Really Teaches", I gathered from the text that doctrine made a distinction between humans and spirits such as angels. The belief in a bodily resurrection made the notion of a soul either redundant or something that would be extinguished. And then there were various citations: some books of the Bible seemed to suggest that this was the only life and assumed that the Lord's pleasure with individuals was the fact that they had lived long lives or were rewarded with such. In some OT books the notion that there could be a resurrection never ( at least so far as the individual book narrative was concerned) entered the picture.

In fact from a contemporary standpoint, it might be interesting to contrast the writings or beliefs of some Israel's neighbors on these matters. Egyptians seemed to favor an eternity after death and build accommodations for their thereafter; Mesopotamians, you live and then you die. Persians and Zoroastrians in the time of Cyrus were another kettle of fish, but difficult to document.

Centuries after Christ, the Apostle's Creed speaks of the" resurrection of the body and life everlasting" - and Jehovah Witness lore seems to extrapolate on that to such a degree that one could wonder if pioneers are on neighborhood surveys for that morrow. Mark is also the Gospel where Jesus in 12:18-27 says:

25 "When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven."

This suggests that somehow we are to be transformed like caterpillars into butterflies.

As to what glimpses we might have had into what that might be like - from the Bible, from medicine, from incidents in history or legend, near death accounts - we all have to judge for ourselves. Yet paradoxically, our conscious existence emerges from somewhere - and then it departs the body in which it was harbored. If it were to be extinguished like a candle as the tract WTBRT suggests, then there is still the problem of how it got lit in the first place. Most physical processes have some sort of conservation within an enclosure. We don't really understand the enclosure our consciousness is in. But if we take away a picture from the Bible or related texts, it is not as clear as sermons might suggest.

Thus far, I have concentrated on the sayings in Mark, but there could be some variations not only from Old Testament to New, but also from each Gospel perspective. In Matthew 5:5, it is said that the "Meek shall inherit the earth." That's not conditioned on losing the soul but ... being "meek." Yet does that imply a different type of return than the one envisioned in Mark?

If all this is consistent, then how?

32

Oddest front covers on Watchtower or Awake

by usualusername1 in

jw
friends

in my comedy i want to show the audience a large version of some weird front covers from the watchtower or awake.. do you have any suggestions?.

cheers.

paul.

kepler

That flannel shirt on the eternal terrorist scourge of January 8th, 1987.... Haven't I seen that before?

Wasn't that part of the Frederick Franz wardrobe... er.. collection?

Scariest thing about those guys is their presumed ambidexterity. The artist probably heard something about asymmetric threat and went on from there....

Then I suppose after offering up "Jive" ( in 1975) and should you dig it, what do you suppose WT concluded?

Was it supposed to be music or having a vacation in Jamaica?

Did they have any idea what they were talking about?

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

kepler

David Jay,

Thank you as well for the background and analysis.

Where I live, beside the issues raised by JW teachings or practices, there are considerable number of discussions that arise due to Christian evangelical interpretations of things originating in Hebrew scripture or Judaic practices. Some of these things are obviously pursued with great enthusiasm, but through something of a prism. To illustrate, I have heard that the World Wide Church of God used to celebrate the Beginning of the Year ( Rosh Hashanah) as the Feast of Trumpets. My point is not so much as to whether it is observed correctly or not but that Christians involved in drawing inspiration from the OT would probably be surprised at or unaware of how the observance is understood, as it were, down the street.

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

kepler

Earnest,

In answer to your question, I did a little digging.

Not being a specialist in either Middle English or Greek ( though I've spent time at both modern and ancient from time in the country and time with texts) I would say that we have digressed more from Middle English than the modern demotic Greek has from the Koine.

In fact, I am not sure that a Greek version of the NWT exists.

But still, here is the notion that New York based translators working from a collection of English translations add a theological insertion here and there and process it all back into passable Greek. What does this foreign intrusion provide a Greek Orthodox Christian with his own Bible already notated by nearly 2000 years of commentary.

In English, the NWT does not retain the language of the King James - and I don't mean that as a compliment. Unless a new edited edition of Canterbury Tales were written for a comic book, an effort would be taken to retain the verse.

It does not devote much effort toward the original OT verse. The verse and meter were there in the original Hebrew, but there is no grasp of it in the NWT. How was that faithful to the original?

23

NWT from Greek/Hebrew into other languages?

by Counter-Watchtower in

does jw org claim to have translated the nwt into other languages from greek/hebrew?

because if they did claim that they would have to have biblical scholars in biblical greek/hebrew from every language, that would be a ton of ppl!

and take a lot of time!.

kepler

How is the NWT translated into Greek different from ... Well, the Greek?

Reminds me of a book written by a Russian dissident, Vladimir Voinovich, titled Moscow 2042. Instead of walking into an ordinary travel agency in Munich of 1982, he ended up in a time travel one as well. Originally, he wanted to see what Moscow would be like 50 years in the future, but that flight was already fully booked. So, anyway, he gets on board the 60 year in the future flight and arrives to be met by Intourist travel guides and interpreters. They knew he was coming. And every time he opened his mouth to speak in Russian, the intrepreters would yell out the same thing like an echo. He asked them why they were doing that when it was clear that he could speak for himself. The reply: "Every word you say has to be interpreted in context."