Posts by Bobcat
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27Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 01-19-2014 WT Study (8 DUKES)
by blondie inand princes and mighty men.. *** w97 5/15 p. 19 par.
shepherds and eight dukes.
upon the words of hezekiah the king of.
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84
Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous
by Apognophos intoday's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.
having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.
1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).
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Bobcat
Apognophos:
Hopefully you agree that the statement in paragraph 10 of the article was still disingenuous, though, about how Hezekiah would never 'enlist the help of a pagan nation'.
See my comments here, especially the part regarding paragraph 10.
DATA:
The most hilarious/disgusting comment was the PRIMARY application of Micah 5 being about JW [secret weapon] Elders thousands of years later, and NOT the Messiah's reign.
I posted some comments from the McCominsky commentary on Micah that take a broader view of the application here. Of course, from the WT's viewpoint Messiah only began his reign as recently as 1914. So their 1914 doctrine skews their viewpoint greatly.
For lurkers, regarding when Jesus began his rule, compare here (various verses concerning when Jesus began his rule), and here (parousia), and here (re "The Kingdom of God/Heaven has drawn near"), and here (re Ps 2:7).
Take Care
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84
Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous
by Apognophos intoday's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.
having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.
1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).
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Bobcat
I would like to point out to readers here one of the Society's literary tricks. Paragraph 4 of this WT study article describes "one possibility" with regard to the fulfillment of the prophecy of the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14-16. The possibility is that it is the same child as the one in 8:1-4. The child in 8:1-4 was to be Isaiah's child.
Scholars hold to several possibilities about the connection between 7:14-16 and 8:1-4. Some do indeed feel that they are referring to the same child. Some hold that the one in 7:14-16 would be from a woman in Ahaz's harem (although, not Hezekiah as he was already alive). The account in 7:14-16 is just too ambiguous to definitely identify with the child in 8:1-4. So, paragraph 4 in the WT article is correct to say "one possibility . . ."
But note the question for paragraph 4:
- "2-4. Explain how Isaiah 7:14, 16 was fulfilled (a) in the eighth century B.C.E. (b) in the first century C.E."
The paragraph hedges it's bets, and rightly so, but the audience is asked to make a specific identification. I've noticed this method over the years and want to point it out for reference.
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84
Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous
by Apognophos intoday's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.
having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.
1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).
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Bobcat
NowWhat:
- correct me if i'm wrong, but i cant find anything that hezekiah actually had an alliance with egypt
Here are a few comments from the NAC-Isaiah commentary (Gary V. Smith, Vol I, pp. 507, 508, 511) concerning this point:
[Start quote (p. 507). This material is from part of the initial synopsis of Isaiah chapters 30-33 - Bobcat]
This group of three oracles (chaps. 30-33) explains how the priciples identified in 28:1-29:24 directly apply to the political conflicts involving Judah, Egypt, and Assyria around 704-701 BC.
[Incidentally, most, but not all scholars hold that the setting for chaps. 30-33 is around the 704-701 time period. Some think it is 713-711 (Wildberger), which would be very early in Hezekiah's reign. Some (Hayes, Irvine) think earlier, around the 726-721 time frame, which would be during Ahaz's reign. Some (Watts) prefer during Josiah's time (which would require non-Isaiah authoring). Page 468 of this commentary state: "There are numerous indications that these prophecies (chaps. 28-33) speak to the situation in Judah when the Assyrians were invading the land, thus they should be placed somewhere around 705-701 BC. These prophecies refer to the scourge that beats down Judah (28:18) and a siege of Jerusalem (29:2-3) when hourdes of people will attack it (29:7). God also promises to defeat the enemy by shattering Assyria (29:5; 30:31). He will shield Zion from defeat (31:5) by causing Assyria to fall by a sword not wielded by a man (31:8-9, fulfilled in 37:36)" - Bobcat]
[Continuing quote (p. 508) The following paragraph is part of the initial synopsis of Isaiah chapter 30 - Bobcat]
These messages [regarding Isaiah chapter 30 - Bobcat] are very different and their unity is not obvious because some paragraphs lament the nation's disobedience (30:1-17) and others paradoxically promise hope because of God's grace (30:18-26). These two rather contradictory themes come together in the historical circumstances of the Assyrian attack on Jerusalem around 701 BC. God condemns the people of Judah for not trusting him and instead leaning on Egypt, but he also promises in his grace to defeat the Assyrians (30:31). Such contradictory acts of God are possible because God is gracious and will lead his people to repent and rest in him for salvation (30:15). Then he will eventually transform their sinful world (30:23-26).
[Continuing quote (p. 511). This paragraph forms part of the introductory commentary to 30:1-17 - Bobcat]
It is surprising that Isaiah does not specifically condemn King Hezekiah for this unfaithful political dependence on Egypt. He speaks against the "scoffers who rule this people in Jerusalem" and make a covenant with Egypt (28:14), the wise men who counsel the king (29:14), those who hide their plans from God (29:15), and those obstinate ones who make plans without consulting God (30:1), but no specific mention is made of the king. This raises the question: Is Isaiah addressing the politicians in order to condemn what the nation's leaders are doing, or is he primarily addressing the public in order to castigate the dominant position that won the palace political arguments? Since Hezekiah allows envoys to go to Egypt, he carries responsibility, yet the prophet's failure to condemn Hezekiah (in contrast to Ahaz in chap. 7 and Hezekiah in chap. 39) may indicate that he was not the driving force or a strong proponent of this policy. Later Hezekiah supports another alternative and trusts God rather than Assyria (chaps. 36-37).
[End quote]
Some of my own comments here, based on the commentary's comments:
The setting (704-701, prefered by the majority of scholars based on internal clues in the context) definately involves Hezekiah. He was king alone after his father (Ahaz) died in 715. Since Hezekiah was 25 in 715, Isaiah chapter 30 puts him in his mid-30s; certainly not a feeble youngster at the mercy of adult counselors. Yet he may have had to deal with others in Jerusalem who had political power and knew how to 'work the system' so to speak.
On the other hand, Hezekiah was born into or inherited a situation that for a long time was contrary to Jehovah's will for Judah. In the end, he is remembered as a king who was much more pleasing to God than his predecessors. So it could reasonably be argued that Hezekiah learned from his circumstances, and no doubt made many mistakes along the way as he learned. He was much more 'human' than any whitewashed comic book hero. And I think that's the portrayal that many take exception to.
It is interesting that the Society's Isaiah commentary on chapter 30 leaves out any hint of the historical setting. (See here.)
And I forgot to add: I very much enjoyed reading your analysis, Apognophos.
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Seven Headed Wild Beast officially no longer represents UN?
by donuthole inaccording to a new "bible questions answered": " the wild beast with seven heads introduced at revelation 13:1 represents the worldwide political system.".
i know that they have quietly been backing away from the un identification for awhile.
is this feature on jw.org a new official teaching, or just a spin for the sake of the public?.
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Bobcat
Eden:
Good point.
Take care
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Billy's Comments You Won't Hear at the 01-19-2014 WT Study (7 Shepherds, 8 Dukes)
by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in16-20. we shall also have to raise up against him seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes of mankind.mic.
what is the most important thing that you can do now to prepare for any future attack on gods people?.
all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.. .
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Bobcat
Paragraph 16
- "The prophecy about seven shepherds and eight dukes has its major fulfillment in our day."
The McCominsky commentary on Micah (p. 709) offers a slightly different view of its application. Timewise, it applies it to the entire Messianic era with "the Assyrian" being representative of any or all of Messiah's enemies. The Society is taking "when he comes into our land and when he treads upon our dwelling towers" from Micah 5:5 to refer to an ultimate, final invasion. Whereas the McCominsky is viewing the Assyrian as an ongoing threat during Messiah's rule (which began about 33 CE.)
- "The prophecy finds its fulfillment in the church: Christ is raising up elders and gifted people to protect it against evil people (Rom 12:3-8; 1 Cor 12; Eph 4:7-13; Titus 1:5-9; The WT translates Ephesians 4:8 as "gifts in men," giving an 'elders only' flavor to the verse. A literal translation would read "gifts to people," in line with what verse 7 says about 'Christ measuring out the free gift to each one.')
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Billy's Comments You Won't Hear at the 01-19-2014 WT Study (7 Shepherds, 8 Dukes)
by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in16-20. we shall also have to raise up against him seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes of mankind.mic.
what is the most important thing that you can do now to prepare for any future attack on gods people?.
all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.. .
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Bobcat
Paragraph 1
- "SOMETIME between 762 B.C.E. and 759 B.C.E" - This should be 734 and 732
Paragraph 6
- "Ahaz died in 746" - This should be 716/15
Paragraph 9
- ". . . the Assyrians conquered the northern kingdom . . ." - This is c. 722/21
- "In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah . . ." - This is 701
Paragraph 10
- "Hezekiah was aware of the approaching danger, but rather than desperately enlist the help of a pagan nation . . ." -
also
- "Hezekiah placed his trust in Jehovah" -
This is not the whole story. 2 Kings 18:13 is quoted in the previous paragraph. But note Hezekiah's immediate response as told in verses 13-16:
(2 Kings 18:13-16 NWT) 13 And in the fourteenth year of King Hez·e·ki′ah, Sen·nach′er·ib the king of As·syr′i·a came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and proceeded to seize them. 14 So Hez·e·ki′ah the king of Judah sent to the king of As·syr′i·a at La′chish, saying: “I have sinned. Turn back from against me. Whatever you may impose upon me I shall carry.” Accordingly the king of As·syr′i·a laid upon Hez·e·ki′ah the king of Judah three hundred silver talents and thirty gold talents. 15 Therefore Hez·e·ki′ah gave all the silver that was to be found at the house of Jehovah and in the treasures of the king’s house. 16 At that time Hez·e·ki′ah cut off the doors of the temple of Jehovah and the doorposts that Hez·e·ki′ah the king of Judah had overlaid and then gave them to the king of As·syr′i·a.
But also prior to this. Around 706 Assyrian monarch Sargon died in battle. The NICOT-Isaiah commentary (Vol I p.10) says:
[Start quote]
- The hearts of those oppressed by Assyria leapt up and revolts broke out anew. . . In Babylon the perennial war-horse, Merodach-baladan, once again emerged. It is unclear whether it was at this time or at some prior time to 710 that his envoys had visited Hezekiah (Isa. 39:1). At either time their purpose would have been the same: encouraging a fellow opponent of the Assyrian machine.
- For whatever reason Hezekiah rose to the bait on this occasion. He became the moving force in a new coalition composed of Philistia, Judah, Edom, and Moab. The Philistines were evidently reluctant to join, so following the very same policy Israel and Syria had tried on Judah thirty years earlier [see paragraph 1 of WT study article - Bobcat], Hezekiah attacked them, deposed their king, and installed a man who would take his orders.
[End quote]
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Seven Headed Wild Beast officially no longer represents UN?
by donuthole inaccording to a new "bible questions answered": " the wild beast with seven heads introduced at revelation 13:1 represents the worldwide political system.".
i know that they have quietly been backing away from the un identification for awhile.
is this feature on jw.org a new official teaching, or just a spin for the sake of the public?.
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Bobcat
Eden:
- The greek term used in 14 is "tõ", meaning "to the".
- The greek term used three times in 15 is "tou", meaning "of the".
The article in v. 14 is Dative ("to the"). The articles in v. 15 are Genitive ("of the"). Others can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Dative article is pretty much standard following an infinitive ("to set up" in the NIV, "to make" in the NWT). I don't think this makes much difference in meaning between v. 14 and v. 15. The action in that phrase in v. 14 is indirect (the second beast orders others 'to make an image . . .') requiring the infinitive (to + verb).
Incidentally, to throw something into the mix, v. 15 says (in part, quoted from the NIV above):
- ". . . so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed."
The NWT has:
". . . so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed . . ."
The literal text has no word "both" as in the NWT. Vv. 11-18 consists of a series of statements starting with "and" (polysyndeton) that describe the "two-horned lamb: V. 11 "And I saw another . . ."; v. 12 "And it exercises . . ."; v. 13 "And it performs . . ."; v. 14 "And it misleads . . ."; v. 15a "And there was granted it to give breath to the image so that it should speak. . ."; At v. 15b starts another "and" clause that many take as referring to the image (a la NWT and others), but is just as possible referring to the "two-horned beast": 'And it (the two-horned beast) causes to be killed all who wouldn't worship the image . . .'
G. K. Beale, in his NIGTC-Revelation commentary says the word poiese ("cause" in both NIV and NWT) "is really formally coordinate with dounai pnuema ("to give spirit"), so that it was the beast and not the image that issued the decree of death." (p. 714)
At any rate,
Take Care
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Ministry in God's paradise earth
by mistified inso i'm listening to a talk this week and the speaker was pretty delusional and shouted a lot!
the talk was the usual mumble jumble but then he said something that did not make any sense at all.
he said that after armageddon in the new paradise earth, the witnesses will still be warning people about the end of the new system of things.
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Bobcat
I kinda think the speaker was making some of his own extrapolations.
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What Armageddon is the book of Revelation refering to?
by Vienna Angelika insomeone asked me what revelation was talking about when it mentions armageddon.
if it's not like witnesses say, then what is it, and when?
i would really appreciate some info on this as i have not seen too much on this subject..
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