Posts by Bobcat

40

Don't Miss the Meetings - Hebrews 10:24, 25 Re-examined

by Oubliette in

i recently got an unsolicited lecture from a well-intentioned but nevertheless misguided jw friend.

the gist of it was that i needed to go to all the meetings or i would miss out on "everlasting life.".

i responded that i do not need to go to meetings to have a relationship with god.

Bobcat

Phizzy:

Eden One said " The 1st century christians did meet ONCE a week... on sunday evenings."

Proof ?

Here is the article on "Lord's Day" (Rev 1:10) from the ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia). This isn't the recent revised version of the ISBE, but the article carries the gist of whats in the newer one. Whether it would stand as proof to most JWs is questionable. The WT takes "Lord's Day" in Revelation 1:10 to be a reference to "the Day of the Lord." (The whole framework of their understanding of Revelation rests on the quirky NWT rendering of this verse. See here for some discussion of this verse. Additional here.

Take Care

9

SODOM AND GOMORRAH Matthew 11:24 Great Conversation Starter

by objectivetruth in

matthew 11:24 is a great scripture to use, when speaking with friends & family, that are still "blinded".

"24?consequently i say to you people, it will be more endurable for the land of sodom on judgment day than for you.".

the current understanding is that jesus was using hyperbole.

Bobcat

The start of the problem is the NWT's rendition of hemera kriseos in Matthew 10:15; 11:22, 24; 12:36. For some explanation, see here. By "Judgment Day," more properly "day of judgment," Jesus is referring to the coming destruction of the nation at the hand of the Romans. The reference to Sodom & Gomorrah is an allusion to Lamentations 4:6 although the phrasing in Matthew sounds a bit awkward.

By translating the phrase in Matthew as "Judgment Day," and developing a doctrine that differentiates it from "day of judgment" (although they are the exact same phrase in Greek), the Society created this problem of whether the people of Sodom would be resurrected or not. And thus, they waffled back and forth over the years about this, when in fact, it was their manufactured understanding about "Judgment Day" that created the problem, or at the least, kept it going over the years.

Now, as the link above mentions, they never use these verses in Matthew when they talk about "Judgment Day," even though these verses in Matthew are the only ones in the NWT which have the term "Judgment Day."

Concerning Matthew 11:23, Barnes Notes on the NT says, " This has been strictly fulfilled. In the wars between the Jews and the Romans, Chorazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum, etc., were so completely desolated that it is difficult to determine their former situation. " I imagine Josephus has some on this but I don't have time at the moment to look it up.

74

Billy's Comments You Won't Hear at the 01-19-2014 WT Study (7 Shepherds, 8 Dukes)

by Billy the Ex-Bethelite in

16-20. we shall also have to raise up against him seven shepherds, yes, eight dukes of mankind.mic.

what is the most important thing that you can do now to prepare for any future attack on gods people?.

all of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not.. .

Bobcat

Yadda:

Concerning Psalm 146:3 ("Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man"; KJV), the Expositor's Bible Commentary-Psalms (Tremper Longman & David E Garland, p. 993) says, "The psalmist uses the device of merismus - "princes" and "man" - to call on the community not to trust in human beings." ["princes" & "son of man" representing the highest ranking of humans and the common man, the 'high and low' of humanity, thus, including everyone in between. - Bobcat]

84

Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous

by Apognophos in

today's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.

having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.

1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).

Bobcat

Johnamos:

That paragraph describes the WT to a T.

40

Don't Miss the Meetings - Hebrews 10:24, 25 Re-examined

by Oubliette in

i recently got an unsolicited lecture from a well-intentioned but nevertheless misguided jw friend.

the gist of it was that i needed to go to all the meetings or i would miss out on "everlasting life.".

i responded that i do not need to go to meetings to have a relationship with god.

Bobcat

I posted some reference material regarding Hebrews 10:24, 25 on this post. It is towards the latter part of my post.

84

Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous

by Apognophos in

today's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.

having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.

1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).

Bobcat

For any who are interested, here (see the first five paragraphs) is Josephus' discussion of the Assyrian threat to Judah in the days of Hezekiah.

34

How do Jehovah's Witnesses get from 1914 to 1919?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys and gals,.

i have written an article that explains how the watchtower society gets from 607 bce to 1914 (http://www.jehovahswitnessblog.com/faqs/why-is-1914-important/) but i need some input so that i can write an article on how they get from 1914 to (via 1918) 1919.. are we talking about ezra, 1:2-4 when the persian king cyrus allows the israelites to go and rebuild the temple 3 and a half years after exiling them?

if so, how has the watchtower used this passage to get to 1919??.

Bobcat

I posted a brief, general explanation here.

27

Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 01-19-2014 WT Study (8 DUKES)

by blondie in

and princes and mighty men.. *** w97 5/15 p. 19 par.

shepherds and eight dukes.

upon the words of hezekiah the king of.

Bobcat

Just to tie some of the comments on this article together:

Here is "Billy's" discussion of the article.

Here is Apognophos' discussion of several parts of it.

Here is research material on older WT views of the 7/8 dukes. (Thanks to Bats in the Belfry)

84

Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous

by Apognophos in

today's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.

having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.

1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).

Bobcat

Apognophos:

Hopefully you agree that the statement in paragraph 10 of the article was still disingenuous, though, about how Hezekiah would never 'enlist the help of a pagan nation'.

See my comments here, especially the part regarding paragraph 10.

DATA:

The most hilarious/disgusting comment was the PRIMARY application of Micah 5 being about JW [secret weapon] Elders thousands of years later, and NOT the Messiah's reign.

I posted some comments from the McCominsky commentary on Micah that take a broader view of the application here. Of course, from the WT's viewpoint Messiah only began his reign as recently as 1914. So their 1914 doctrine skews their viewpoint greatly.

For lurkers, regarding when Jesus began his rule, compare here (various verses concerning when Jesus began his rule), and here (parousia), and here (re "The Kingdom of God/Heaven has drawn near"), and here (re Ps 2:7).

Take Care

84

Witnesses: Why The 1/19/14 WT Lesson Is Dangerous

by Apognophos in

today's watchtower lesson touched on the history of hezekiah's reign, and then made a surprising modern-day application.

having used my time before the meeting to research the underlying material instead of highlighting my magazine, i personally found this to be an upsetting study, and decided to put this warning here in the hopes that some active witnesses read it.. the most important thing i want to say to you is that the actual flow of events in this bible account were severely misrepresented, and that there are some disturbing implications in the distortions that were made.

1. hezekiah's father ahaz makes himself a vassal to assyria out of fear of their overwhelming might (2 kings 16:7, 8).. 2. upon becoming king, hezekiah rebels against assyria (2 kings 18:7).

Bobcat

I would like to point out to readers here one of the Society's literary tricks. Paragraph 4 of this WT study article describes "one possibility" with regard to the fulfillment of the prophecy of the child to be born in Isaiah 7:14-16. The possibility is that it is the same child as the one in 8:1-4. The child in 8:1-4 was to be Isaiah's child.

Scholars hold to several possibilities about the connection between 7:14-16 and 8:1-4. Some do indeed feel that they are referring to the same child. Some hold that the one in 7:14-16 would be from a woman in Ahaz's harem (although, not Hezekiah as he was already alive). The account in 7:14-16 is just too ambiguous to definitely identify with the child in 8:1-4. So, paragraph 4 in the WT article is correct to say "one possibility . . ."

But note the question for paragraph 4:

"2-4. Explain how Isaiah 7:14, 16 was fulfilled (a) in the eighth century B.C.E. (b) in the first century C.E."

The paragraph hedges it's bets, and rightly so, but the audience is asked to make a specific identification. I've noticed this method over the years and want to point it out for reference.