Posts by Bobcat

59

Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats in

1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

Bobcat

Hi rstrats,

As I pointed out in one of my posts above, the wording may have been chosen to draw a memorable parallel with the LXX wording used in Jonah. And I could also see the possibility of the writer of Matthew choosing this wording just for its effects on the readers of his account.

I do understand that in the account of Jesus' death and resurrection there were not three actual days and nights involved. But the post-resurrection accounts in the gospels and Acts don't mention any of the disciples - or even the religious leaders who had him killed - quibbling over this discrepancy.

If all this happened in our time I don't doubt that these discrepancies would be highlighted ad nauseum. But my understanding is that people of the ANE were, generally, more concerned with the ideas conveyed rather than the actual precision of the wording.

19

Gog of Magog - Watchtower says it has two identities

by Listener in

the searcher started a topic addressing the gt, a comment from sparrowdown asked an interesting question -.

"...the political powers of satan's world will form a coalition..."that's the statement that interests me.

what are they alluding to?.

Bobcat

Gog of Magog is from the MT , Gog and Magog is from the LXX

Gog of Magog is an individual who gathers a coalition of nations. Ezek 38:7

In the opening portion of Ezek 38 in the LXX Gog and Magog are led by a ruler named Rhos (thought to be the LXX mistranslation of the word head as in head chieftain. The LXX gets a little more confusing as one reads further in the chapter due to this.

If the reference in Rev 20:8 is an allusion to the LXX rendering it makes sense of the context: the people misled make up Gog and Magog and the devil fulfills the role of Rhos.

59

Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats in

1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

Bobcat

Fair enough.

59

Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats in

1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

Bobcat

Do you try to explain the lack of a third night by saying that the Messiah was using common figure of speech?

From what I read in the commentary it sounds more like a difference in viewpoint or way of looking at things. People back 2000 years ago weren't concerned as much about whether 3 days was exactly 72 hours.

In the Matthew account at 27:63 the Pharisees understood Jesus to mean that "after three days I will rise again." According to that passage they didn't seem confused about what he meant.

Another factor to consider is that the particular words chosen may have been used to create some sense of parallel with the LXX account of Jonah. So, in a sense, Jesus (or Matthew) may have taken some 'poetic license.' The people listening to him did not have a brochure of what he said to take home with them. But they were likely familiar with the Jonah account from Scripture readings in the synagogue. So, choosing words that would stick, although not technically accurate to a "pedantic Western" viewpoint, may have been the way to go. I'm sure many modern speakers use similar strategies to make their point memorable.

59

Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats in

1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

Bobcat

Here is an extract from the NICNT-Matthew commentary (R. T. France, p. 491)

. . . The different phrasing of the three-day period compared with the "third day" of Matt 16:21; 17:23; 20:19; 27:64 and the "after three days" of Matt 27:63 is due to the LXX wording, but in Semitic inclusive time-reckoning these do not denote different periods as a pedantic Western reading would suggest.

As France suggests, a difference of viewpoint between Semitic and modern Western time keeping may be at the heart of the problem. Here is an article on "inclusive time reckoning" if you are interested.

11

Assembly day Cleveland Ohio (Willoughby ass. Hall) results

by nowwhat? in

1300 attendance 11 teenagers baptised (.85 growth) $12,000 expenses.

biggest facepalm moment- teenage pioneer says she pioneers because "the overlapping generation is getting up there in years ,so time is short" as the saying goes "those that don't know history are doomed to repeat it".

very mind numbing day nothing you haven't heard a hundred times before..

Bobcat

1300 attendance . . . $12,000 expenses.

That sounds about right. i don't think attendance is used to figure the head count price. Rather, the number of publishers in the circuit. At maybe $ 10.00 dollars a head. Maybe 1000-1200 publishers in the circuit. Plus some incidental expenses such as paying for the visiting Bethelite. It sounds about right.

This is the new math I've always heard about.

93

Higher Education

by Brian J in

just spent 8 hours in a 1 day elders school last weekend.

clarification given: "moving forward any elder, ms, or pioneer who themselves or someone under their roof enrolls in higher education, may no longer qualify for privileges in the congregation.

their qualifications will have to be reviewed by their boe.".

Bobcat

Hi BJ,

I was wondering if the parts on making reccomendations had any discussion about dealing with brothers who don't seem to be reaching out.

Thanks.

14

New NWT, then and now - a comparison of the 2013 NWT, 2013 vs 2017.

by MeanMrMustard in

acts 2:9. old text:.

acts 2:10. old text:.

acts 2:11. old text:.

Bobcat

Thanks MMM!

13

Why isn't Lazarus my next-door neighbor?

by return of parakeet in

after looking through doug mason's "ransom" thread, i noticed a little discrepancy between dub doctrine and the bible; i.e.

lazarus.. if the wages of sin is death, lazarus paid the wages in full by dying, and when resurrected by jesus, he should then have been a "perfect" man.

after all, he paid his wages for his imperfection -- he died.

Bobcat

I think you are confusing the 'act' or process of dying with being dead. And the death of the sinner does not produce forgiveness by God. Without an arrangement for forgiveness (Jesus' sacrifice) the sinner would simply stay dead. Thus, when Lazarus was brought back he was still a sinner and destined to eventually die.

Part of the WT's mistake is embodied in their translation of Romans 6:7 -

For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin (Rom 6:7 rNWT)

The error is the inserted word "his." It does not belong in the text. Romans chapter six is comparing baptism to death. The writer is saying that when a person dies they are no longer subject to the desires that produce sin - because they are dead. "Acquitted," in this context, would more properly be rendered "set free."

18

How do jw's answer this? John 6:54 & blood issue

by carla in

i happen to be cruising around the net and stumbled upon this question on a different forum.

how do jw's answer jesus words in john 6:54 today?.

"whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and i will raise them up at the last day.

Bobcat

The Reasoning book under "Memorial" addresses John 6:54. It points out that the people (including the disciples) who heard Jesus say those words had no idea of a "Memorial" or Lord's Evening Meal. Thus, according to the WT, John 6:54 can't be applied to partaking of the emblems.

That logic is, of course, faulty. For example, the "audience" listening to Jesus included the readers of the fourth gospel who had been 'remembering' the Lord's Evening Meal for many years and would have easily seen the correspondence between John 6:54 and the symbolism involved in partaking of the emblems.

Another problem, if one accepts the WT's logic on why John 6:54 does not refer to partaking, then, that same logic would mean that Acts 15:29 can have no reference to blood transfusions since the original readers of the letter that contained Acts 15:29 had never heard of blood transfusions. I pointed this out to a brother some years ago and he acknowledged that 'the Society's reasoning has many holes in it.' Him and his wife have since pulled away from the WT (but not just for that).

A post I made on this page has a commentary reference concerning John 6:54 and the memorial emblems.