Hey Doug,
Speaking of Revelation drawing on symbology from other sources, you wouldn't to happen to have available a pdf of this book would you?
Posts by Bobcat
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20Sources of John's vivid imagery
by Doug Mason inin common with other apocalyptic writings, such as daniel and 1 enoch, john’s letter employs vivid, memorable imagery.
as with the other elements of his apocalypse (revelation), john draws on existing sources for his material.. meanings inferred from the images need to keep the following firmly in mind:.
1. the symbols had to have meaning for and be clearly understood by his immediate intended hearers.. 2. john intended that these images encourage those hearers to “overcome”, then and there.. 3. john anticipated that the coming of jesus was imminent, “soon”.. it is my belief that the images were intended to depict earthly opposition (rome and apostate jews) as well as heavenly opposition (wars in heaven involving satan).. the writers/compilers of daniel also employed vivid imagery.
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23
Moses, Soloman spoke to the entire assembly of Israel...How???
by James Mixon inmoses spoke to the entire assembly deuteronomy 31:3, leviticus19:2 and exodus 16:9 no sound amplification, we must remember he was speaking to 2 million people.
solomon in 2 chronicles spoke to thousands maybe millions, so how the hell did folks a mile away hear..you need a sound system for 200 folks in a close building in the kh.... moses, solomon and others had a great set of vocal cords.....
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4
Tame, Pet Crocodile
by Fisherman inhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wjqworxraxi.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i7fzzufvx0s.
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Bobcat
One of the things that strike me with reptiles in general is that you get none of the indications of what mood they are in that you get with dogs and cats. Dogs and cats are much easier to 'read' their mood. But alligators are always 'business' looking. They always have a poker face. Maybe it is a matter of learning different cues.
I think one day he will end up like the "young lady of Niger." (Or like Steve Irwin.)
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35
Matthew 24:34 not fulfilled in the first century
by Jules Saturn ini was discussing with an elder the generation teaching and telling him when jesus christ says in matthew 24:34 “truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” he was referring to the generation from the first century in 33 ad and these events that were to take place took place with the destruction of jerusalem in 70 ad.
now the elder tells me to go back to a few verses to from verses 29-33 which read: .
“immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,+ and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.+ 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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35
Matthew 24:34 not fulfilled in the first century
by Jules Saturn ini was discussing with an elder the generation teaching and telling him when jesus christ says in matthew 24:34 “truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” he was referring to the generation from the first century in 33 ad and these events that were to take place took place with the destruction of jerusalem in 70 ad.
now the elder tells me to go back to a few verses to from verses 29-33 which read: .
“immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,+ and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.+ 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Bobcat
Bobcat: How did you come to understand Matthew 24 as you do?
It has been a process and researching covering about 15 years. The NICNT-Matthew commentary (R. T. France) I found very useful. It did not fully complete the picture for me, but it did put many of the pieces in place. France has a very practical view and a willingness to depart from standard views when the text suggests it. His commentary is one of my favorite and useful books in my personal library. He sees "this generation" exactly as you take it, and he assumes from there that "these things" simply had to be understood within that time frame. -
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Matthew 24:34 not fulfilled in the first century
by Jules Saturn ini was discussing with an elder the generation teaching and telling him when jesus christ says in matthew 24:34 “truly i say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things happen.” he was referring to the generation from the first century in 33 ad and these events that were to take place took place with the destruction of jerusalem in 70 ad.
now the elder tells me to go back to a few verses to from verses 29-33 which read: .
“immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened,+ and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.+ 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief,+ and they will see the son of man+ coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
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Bobcat
Hi Jules,
I'll second Vanderhoven's expressed view. Here and here are posts (on another site) I made on the literary structure of that section of Matthew that also point to a first century Jewish generation being referred to at Mt 24:34. "This generation" of Mt 24:34 forms an inclusio with "this generation" of Mt 23:36.
I think Vanderhoven also clued in on translation issues: "All the tribes of the earth" could just as easily be rendered, "all the tribes of the land." But translators often believe just as your elder, that the phrase is referring to a future event, not the first century. Same with the phrase, "then they will see the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. (See Greek verse order here.)
The "sign" is of "the Son of Man in heaven." This is an allusion to Dan 7:13. Just a few days later Jesus associated the accusation that he would destroy the temple with this allusion to Daniel 7:13. (Mt 26:59-64) The "sign" was the destruction of the temple and city, which gave evidence that Jesus was also who he said he was and had the ruling authority to make the fulfillment come true. To the religious leaders back then, the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem was impossible since they were God's people. To even suggest such a thing was next to blasphemy.
In reality, your elder, by saying Mt 24:29-31 did not have a first century fulfillment, is expressing a lack of faith in Jesus. Jesus said, "Most truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things occur." The "most truly" (or "truly truly") is emphatic that "these things" would occur within that "generation." Even if the elder can't see how Mt 24:29-31 had a first century fulfillment, he should have the faith that there must have been some fulfillment.
Your elder's lack of faith is rooted in the WT's lack of faith that Jesus began ruling after he returned to heaven in the first century. See here for links to scriptural indications that this happened after Jesus' resurrection. The WT maintains that this did not happen until 1914.
On the 'trumpet blast' referred to at Mt 24:31, see here (and about two thirds of the way down in the post where the 1st trumpet in Rev 8:7 is referred to).
On Mt 24:29 and its parallel in Luke 21:25-26, see here in connection with the verses foretelling the Roman Civil War of 68-69 AD. Of interest is the possibility that Matthew's account was more for Jewish disciples, whereas, the gentile Luke, writing to the gentile Theophilus, gives much more detail (metaphorical, to be sure) about the Roman Civil War. Thus, Matthew 24:29 has only the cryptic reference to Isa 13:10. But Luke elaborates on the effects on "the inhabited earth" (Greek oikoumené) which in Luke's writings is almost always used in reference to the Roman empire. (Lu 2:1; Acts 11:28; 17:6 19:27; 24:5)
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When did the society decide blood transfusions were a bad idea?
by new boy inmore book research..
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Bobcat
Bookmarked
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Millions Then Living Did Not Survive
by Fred Franztone init's almost 2018, almost 100 years since 'judge' rutherford confidently prophesied that 'millions now living will never die!'..
so how many of those millions are left?
well, since it was 100 years ago, all we need to do is find out how many people of age 100 and above are currently living.
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Bobcat
Most estimates put the worldwide figure at roughly 450,000, not even half a million.
Hey Fred,
Not quibbling over figures, but this page says the UN estimated in 2012 that there were about 316,600 centenarians alive. But, 450,000 or 317,000, either way, a very interesting point made on the page was the estimate that only 1 in a thousand make it to age 110 (super centenarian). So, of the 450,000 or 317,000 centenarians in 2012, there will only be between 450 to 317 alive by 2022.
Here we are more than 5 years after 2012. The numbers must be markedly lower by now.
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Charismatic People
by Coded Logic ini was writing about a friend of mine.
i'm a little curious if anyone else knows people like this too.. if personal inquiries were bullets then you’re charisma would be the stuff of ceramic plates and kevlar vests.
i say that because most of these charismatic people i know use their charm to relate to other people.
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Bobcat
Some use humor in the same way. In fact, I would propose that many comedians are good at it from having used it as a defense mechanism much of their lives.
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Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?
by rstrats in1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.
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Bobcat
Hi rstrats,
As I pointed out in one of my posts above, the wording may have been chosen to draw a memorable parallel with the LXX wording used in Jonah. And I could also see the possibility of the writer of Matthew choosing this wording just for its effects on the readers of his account.
I do understand that in the account of Jesus' death and resurrection there were not three actual days and nights involved. But the post-resurrection accounts in the gospels and Acts don't mention any of the disciples - or even the religious leaders who had him killed - quibbling over this discrepancy.
If all this happened in our time I don't doubt that these discrepancies would be highlighted ad nauseum. But my understanding is that people of the ANE were, generally, more concerned with the ideas conveyed rather than the actual precision of the wording.