Posts by Bobcat

75

The 24 Elders in Revelation are NOT the anointed......

by EndofMysteries in

today i just thought of this.

i had written a thread about the false teaching of the anointed being resurrected already.

anyway, the wt assumes the 24 elders in revelation are the 144,000, and the assumption is merely because both sit on thrones.

Bobcat

I thought I would include some of what the Baker Exegetical Greek Commentary on Revelation (Grant R. Osborne, p.229) has for reasoning that the 24 elders of Revelation were/are angelic in origin:

[After listing the various views that think they are human in origin, not all for the same reason . . .]

However, many others ([various comemntators listed]) believe these are angelic figures. There are no other human beings in [Rev] chapter 4, and in Isa 24:23 angels might be called "elders: (it is debated whether they are angels or the elders of Israel). In Ps 89:7 (cf. 1 Kings 22:19; Job 15:8) God sits in the "council of his holy ones" (=angels). Moreover, angels are called "thrones or powers or rulers or authorities" in Col. 1:16 (cf. Eph 3:10; 6:12), and they wear white in Matt. 28:3; John 20:12; Acts 1:10. [Bobcat - This last argument counters the argument that they must be human because of wearing white.) The thrones and golden crowns could refer to their royal function under God similar to the way first-century kings were subject to the Roman emperor.

The key is the function of the presbyteroi (elders) in the book [of Revelation]. Their primary role is that of worship (5:14; 11:16; 19:4) and praise (4:11; 5:9-10; 11:17-18; 14:3; 19:4). In addition, they serve as intermediaries and interpreters (5:5; 7:13-17). A close examination of these texts shows a distinct differentiation between the elders and the saints. In 5:8 they hold golden bowls that contain the prayers of the saints; in 7:13-14 one of them explains who the victorious saints are; in 11:18 they thank God for rewarding the saints; in 14:3 the 144,000 sing "a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders"; and in 19:4 they join the heavenly chorus. The elders are seated on thrones (4:4; 11:16), while the saints stand before the thone (7:9). From this evidence it is more likely that these are heavenly beings who reign with God and are part of the retinue surrounding his throne. Moreover, since "all the angels" also stand before the throne (7:11), these must be celestial beings with a ruling function. [Bobcat - Thus, Daniel 10:13, "one of the foremost princes" which included the angelic Michael, with the phrase being spoken by an angelic messenger.]

[End of quote. Material in square brackets was inserted by Bobcat to fill out the context]

20

Has the rescent change in the identity of the FDS been released in print yet

by A.M. Number 1 in

just wondering what wt issue has actually put it down in print.

i know that some of my jw frineds already know about it, but they didn't tell me if it was an announcement at the hall or actually in the wt..

Bobcat

Quote from website: (copied from above)

The evidence points to the following conclusion:

As is WT practice, such statements never provide the "evidence" they are referring to. They use the word "evidence" like a pronoun without an antecedent. ("It was blue." "What was blue?" "It doesn't matter 'what' was blue, only that we know that, 'it' was blue.")

“The faithful and discreet slave” was appointed over Jesus’ domestics in 1919.

Simple assertion, based on their authority to make assertions without supporting evidence. The real question this assertion leads to is, In what way did the master leave in 1919 after he put said 'slave' in charge? That was the reason in the parable for the master putting him in charge in the first place.

That slave is the small, composite group of anointed brothers serving at world headquarters during Christ’s presence who are directly involved in preparing and dispensing spiritual food.

Wouldn't this include, then, the army of brothers and sisters involved in researching, writing, printing, typesetting, transport, dispensing it in the field, and all the support services that make this possible? Why are only those who sign off on the material this "slave."? This assertion is a really grand lie.

When this group work together as the Governing Body, they act as “the faithful and discreet slave.”

So what happens if the GB don't reach a unified decision? What if two of the seven disagree?

Another problem is the reward. Supposedly 'all the anointed' are given the belongings at Armageddon (According to the Society's explanation). But only the GB are the slave who earns the reward. How is that? (This question was taken up on the AnointedJW website.)

41

Worldwide Davos Meeting To Discuss ET Disclosure

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.disclose.tv/news/davos_2013_leaders_to_discuss_aliens_superhumans__immortals/89548.

amoung other things, it is being reported that the billionaire meeting at davos will discuss the possibility of extraterrestrial contact.. step by step.

inch by inch.

Bobcat

EP:

How do you make the leap from "engines taken away on trucks" to "aliens"?

If you are asking me, I don't. (Unless, of course, you count Chinese and Iranians as "aliens" to Israelis. I imagine to anyone who was capable of traveling across the galaxy, an F110 turbofan would seem hopelessly antique and inefficient. It might be suitable for an alien museum of sorts.

Making contact with persons of another world, or even finding positive proof of such would be a spectacular find. But I think most 'sightings' can be more easily explained by other things. And the mysterious sightings and supposed evidence that remain are too furtive. More like someone was trying to make you think that, but without actually allowing any positive identification.

The immense physics involved in providing transport across light-years of space, only to play hide and seek with humanity afterwards doesn't make sense to me. Either they would stay hidden and observe (ala Star Trek's non-interference policy) or they would reveal themselves (either as hostiles or as friends).

And if their intention was to reveal themselves, it would, to me, seem to be 'the sooner the better.' If as 'friends' hoping to help us, 'sooner' would mean keeping us further from the precipice of self-destruction. If as 'hostiles,' 'sooner' would mean having to contend with less human ability to fight back.

To be sure, the subject inspires possibilities and conjectures and dreams. And I like reading about those possibilities. But reality seems to be more mundane.

41

Worldwide Davos Meeting To Discuss ET Disclosure

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://www.disclose.tv/news/davos_2013_leaders_to_discuss_aliens_superhumans__immortals/89548.

amoung other things, it is being reported that the billionaire meeting at davos will discuss the possibility of extraterrestrial contact.. step by step.

inch by inch.

Bobcat

EP:

Concerning the engines, here is a report.

50

Revelation 14:3 Who sings the new song???????

by label licker in

in society's revelation book chapter 29 verse 10 on page 201 states the 24 elders are 144,000 and all are singing the same song, how can that be?

in their bible the only ones that can master that song is the 144,000. not the four living creatures nor the elders.

this 144,000 group is standing before the 24 elders.

Bobcat

See my post #298 on this thread.

Hope this is useful.

Take Care

13

When Did You Stop Attending The Memorial At the Hall? Celebrate L.E.M. With Friends Online?

by ÁrbolesdeArabia in

i am still new to the business of fading and once i stop attending the memorial with all the dubs around me, my former friends will definitly put my shepherding call on hold.

i am sure some of the friends faded quick and never turn their back toward the kingdom hall again.

i am curious if others took a longer approach to fading and dropping off completly.

Bobcat

Wolfman85:

Be careful. I've heard stories (I don't know how true) that the Society acts swiftly against those who initiate any meetings like this without their sanctioning.

At the same time I admire the route you are taking. For the last few years, since starting to wake up, I've been kinda split between partaking at the Memorial as a witness to those who don't - or avoiding it as something that is an outright insult to Jesus.

I don't like either choice to much. The partaking was intended by Jesus to be a shared experience. Not just each one for himself (which is what Paul condemned in 1 Corinthians). And yet, at the KH you are left with little choice but to feel you are rebelling if you do partake for the right reason, namely, because that is what Christians are supposed to do. They don't too much mind if you are mentally unbalanced and partake. But to partake because all Christians are supposed to is flirting with apsotacy from the Society's viewpoint. (I think Narkissos had said something about this in his case.)

At my KH there is no one (that I know of) that shares my view.

Take Care

12

Are all Governing Body members anointed?

by Guest with Questions in

jw
friends

i am doing a project and really can't find confirmation on line that all 8(?

) members are anointed.

would greatly appreciate it..

Bobcat

Concerning being anointed, see my post 474 and 475 on this thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/244314/1/What-scripture-was-it-that-let-an-average-joe-know-that-they-were-annointed

And here is further research on the topic of "anointed Christians":

Here,

and here (see my posts 384 and 385 for numerous sub-links on the subject)

41

Are you DF'd? Share the weirdness, I'll start.....

by Pickler in

so i started a reply on the topic of "what's your status?

" and it made me think about my df hearing (sorry i can't remember the exact term for what happened).. so i was fading, living in a different country, working & making rare appearances at my kingdom hall.

i was flat sharing with a sister though.

Bobcat

All they needed to know was you did it and you weren't sorry, could've taken ten minutes.

Funny how when it is apostasy they don't want to know any of the details.

12

Who is it really disciplining????

by jeremiah18:5-10 in

the wts sanctions the practice of shunning or disfellowshipping of unrepentant wrongdoers.

this practice cuts the person off from not only the congregation members, but also their still believing family.

the wts backs up their action by threatening the members (congregation and family) with being df'ed themselves if they choose to associate with the df'ed person.. the claim in part is that its an act of loving discipline that may move the wrongdoer to repentance and to return to the congregation and thus to jehovah.

Bobcat

Jeremiah:

You're right about DFing. It is a vindictive assault masquerading as 'loving discipline.' And in a sense, the WT is reaping the results of it. There are tons of people DFed and many return for all the 'secular' or 'non-spiritual' reasons you mentioned. They let many back who 'learn to play the game.' It can't help but have a slow poisoning effect on the whole.

The current harping on obedience and being quick to follow thru on instructions, the lack of brothers 'reaching out,' etc, all this may actually be symptoms (at least in part) of the DFing policy.

But to change the DFing/Shunning policy now would also take time for the effects of the change to play out. I can only compare the WT to those monkeys holding on to the coconuts that you hear about in talks sometimes. Holding on to their power is the only way to keep going for them. Even if it means the flock has to lose.

6

A thought

by turtleturtle in

a thought regarding a recent public talk i heard:.

.

if christians are truly supposed to be odedient & faithful in all things (to the organization), because jah has always used an organization, then shouldn't the jews around jesus days have done the same thing towards the sanhedrin/priests (even though they were corrupt)?.

Bobcat

Turtleturtle:

If you read thru the gospels and replace the Jewish leadership with the current WT leadership, you will begin to see numerous points of comparison. It is almost uncanny. As if the modern reader were being prepared for what to expect.

In our public talk yesterday, the Speaker mentioned all the things the Society (oops, sorry, F&DS - Mt 23:6,7) keep us busy with. And that by keeping busy with all these things (and the Speaker spoke of them as hard to keep up with), you wouldn't have time to get into trouble. (Mt 23:4)

This is the same logic the Jewish religious leaders used with regard to their oral tradition. It provided layers of rules over the Law, which they thought, if kept, would leave you righteous.

Edited to add:

I see you and I were already on the same wavelength:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/245008/1/Interesting-Parallel