Posts by Bobcat

79

607 date of Jerusalems destruction

by benny in

i am confused about the time scale regarding the year of the destruction of jerusalem.

in the 1st october 2011 watchtower an argument is presented to back up 607 bc but there are so many conflicting arguments that this happened 20 years later according to secular sources.

your thoughts please..

607 date of Jerusalems destruction

by benny in

i am confused about the time scale regarding the year of the destruction of jerusalem.

in the 1st october 2011 watchtower an argument is presented to back up 607 bc but there are so many conflicting arguments that this happened 20 years later according to secular sources.

your thoughts please..

The difference between 587 and 586 bce is explained in this Wikipedia article (especially footnote # 2). It does not have anything to do with the chronology that leads up to the start of the Babylonian siege.

Trying to use the question of 587 or 586 as a basis for throwing doubt on an entire established chronology is a form of grasping at straws.

This post (from another site) also shows how non-WT dating gives greater insight into a few other things in the Bible. The WT has traded away better understanding in order to have a chronology that ostensibly supports their supposed place in history.

79

607 date of Jerusalems destruction

by benny in

i am confused about the time scale regarding the year of the destruction of jerusalem.

in the 1st october 2011 watchtower an argument is presented to back up 607 bc but there are so many conflicting arguments that this happened 20 years later according to secular sources.

your thoughts please..

Bobcat

Here is Carl Olaf Jonsson's book. He has it as a free PDF on his website.

And here is another (inexpensive) book that arrives at 587/86 bce for the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. This book approaches the subject from a different direction than COJ's book. Theile puts together the chronologies of the Hebrew kings starting from the split in the kingdom down to Zedekiah and arrives at the same date as Jonsson. Combined, both books make the 587/86 conclusion beyond any doubt.

Poster "Scholar" is in his own dream world. You can't reason with people who don't want to reason.

24

“Bablyon the Great has Fallen”

by lastmanstanding in

what have you not heard lately?.

.... no discussion on “babylon’s fall”.

by 1919 it was apparent that jehovah had passed judgment on christendom—and indeed on all false religion.

Bobcat

Marked (Thanks for your post Vanderhoven. I'll look it over. I've been of the c. 98 view. But this looks interesting.)

28

"Are natural disasters a sign of the times?" -- Yes, says WT

by FatFreek 2005 in

yes, bible prophecies suggest that there would be disasters during “the conclusion of the system of things,” or “the last days.” (matthew 24:3; 2 timothy 3:1) for example, concerning our time, jesus said: “there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.” (matthew 24:7).

that from their website this morning.. i see how they've morphed (by interpretation) food shortages and earthquakes into virtually all bad happenings today.. i'll bet if the "blue bonnet" (one elder's fractured pronunciation of bubonic during a public talk, using it not once but three times) plague, one of which happened nearly 700 years ago -- was going on today, it would be a sign of the times.

after all, it "caused the death of 60% of the population of europe".. no natural devastation like that seen since..

Bobcat

On the subject of wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes, Jesus' words to his disciples was to 'watch out that nobody mis-leads them. (Mt 24:4-8) The sign they were to look for (in connection with the destruction of the temple) was in Mt 24:15.

Natural disasters, wars, famines and diseases would have been naturally viewed back then as indicators of the displeasure of God or the gods. And would naturally lead people to think that some sort of divine judgment was soon to come. Jesus is warning his disciples not to be influenced like that.

The bright minds at the WT are 'straining out the gnat and swallowing the camel.' You can see that with all the explaining they have to do to get their view to work.

28

"Are natural disasters a sign of the times?" -- Yes, says WT

by FatFreek 2005 in

yes, bible prophecies suggest that there would be disasters during “the conclusion of the system of things,” or “the last days.” (matthew 24:3; 2 timothy 3:1) for example, concerning our time, jesus said: “there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.” (matthew 24:7).

that from their website this morning.. i see how they've morphed (by interpretation) food shortages and earthquakes into virtually all bad happenings today.. i'll bet if the "blue bonnet" (one elder's fractured pronunciation of bubonic during a public talk, using it not once but three times) plague, one of which happened nearly 700 years ago -- was going on today, it would be a sign of the times.

after all, it "caused the death of 60% of the population of europe".. no natural devastation like that seen since..

Bobcat

Hi FF2005,

There are definite scriptural problems with the quote from the WT:

"Conclusion of the system of things" does not equate with "the last days." See this post (off site) that surveys each occurrence of the phrase. The phrase equates better with the start of judgment day or "the day of the Lord."

On the phrase, "last days," this post (also off site) has links showing that NT writers viewed Jesus' 1st advent as the beginning of the last days. 2Ti 3:1-5 is a good example. When you look at the ensuing context (2Ti 3:6-9) it is clear that Paul included his time within "the last days."

Heb 1:2 shows that Jesus' 1st advent was viewed as the beginning of the "last days." - In all translations except the NWT. They don't want the last days to begin then. It would mess with their 1914 & 1919 doctrines.

Also compare Paul's reasoning in Acts 17:30-31. In Paul's view, Jesus' resurrection changes how God is dealing with mankind. Prior to that He lets mankind go about as they wish. But since then He is trying to coax "all mankind, everywhere" to repent.This view argues that Paul saw the time since Jesus' 1st advent as a final age before judgment day. And this view compares well with Heb 9:26-28.

Prior to 1914 God was calling on 'all mankind' to repent. And it continued to be that way after 1914. 1914 changed nothing - nothing, that is, from God's standpoint. The WT's position on "the last days" is arguably anti-christian, anti NT.

8

A Question For Active, Current Jehovah's Witnesses Who Still Believe In The Bible And Are Still Searching For Answers...(Matt. 7:7, 8)

by Observer1217 in

a question for active, current jehovah's witnesses (visiting this discussion board) who still believe in the bible and are still searching for answers...(matt.

we remember the watchtower society has long taught there are no inspired persons on earth today, nor living in our modern times.

which explains their viewpoint concerning the governing body leadership today, saying they need not be inspired to correctly lead the congregation of god's people today.

Bobcat

I would think that receiving the spirit (Ac 2:38-39; Jn 16:12-13), which is a key part of the New Covenant (Jn 3:3, 5), helps make up the difference. Of course, WT doctrine (by limiting that to 144,000), cuts that possibility off for those who accept that the WT's doctrine.

59

Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats in

1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

Bobcat

For the sake of completeness, Gen 42:17-18 was another example of how "three days" and "the third day" were seen as the same thing. It involves Joseph's brothers being imprisoned for "three days" and on "the third day" Joseph lets them free (save for one). Of course, this example lacks any references to "nights."

I found this example cited in Barne's Notes at the BibleHub web site.

59

Common Figure of Speech/Colloquialism?

by rstrats in

1. the messiah said that three nights would be involved with his time in the "heart of the earth".. 2. there are some who believe that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week with the resurrection taking place on the 1st day of the week.. 3. of those, there are some who believe that the "heart of the earth" is referring to the tomb.. 4. however, those two beliefs allow for only 2 nights to be involved.. 5. to account for the discrepancy, some of the above say that the messiah was using common figure of speech/colloquial language of the time, i.e., that it is was common to forecast or say that a day or a night would be involved with an event when no part of the day or no part of the night could occur.. 6. in order for someone to legitimately say that it was common, they would have to know of more that 1 example to make that assertion.. 6. for the purpose of this topic, i would like to ask if there are any 6th day of the week crucifixion advocates who think the messiah was employing common figure of speech/colloquial language of the period?.

Bobcat

The page here lists an example from Esther 4:16 & 5:1. In this example Mordecai (in 4:16) is to persuade the Jews to fast for "three days, night and day" before Esther goes in to see the Persian king. Then. in 5:1, Esther gets dressed in her royal robes and goes into the king on "the third day."

Here is another page discussing this problem. It also uses the example of Esther/Mordecai.

And here is another commentary on Matthew (D. A. Carson) that discusses this same topic. This reference cites these passages as examples: 1Sa 30:12-13; 2Ch 10:5, 12; Est 4:16; 5:1

Here is the Google search I used which has numerous other hits on this topic.

(I am cataloging these references for a post on another site.)

19

New Book: Pure Worship of Jehovah—Restored At Last!

by Afterburn in

it is a new book, now available on their website in pdf, and it is basically an update to survival—into a new earth!

(1984), the book that convinced me to get baptized at age 12.. i'm not going to review the entire book here.. because matthew 28:18-20 specifies baptizing as part of the great commission, and because hebrews 6:1-2 lists the teaching on baptisms as among the primary doctrine about the christ, i intend to focus on the portion of the new publication that deals with baptism.. in chapter 16, on pages 178 and 179, paragraph 17 states:.

17 to survive the coming destruction, individuals need to prove their faith now.

Bobcat

Very good analysis, Afterburn!