Hi Mac48,
If you have time, compare your thoughts on Dan 4 with this thread (on another site). There are some similarities and differences in the proposed application.
Posts by Bobcat
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26Secondary fulfilment to prophecy?
by Doug Mason inin its use of the prophecy contained in nebuchadnezzar's dream (daniel 4), the wts applies a "greater fulfilment" beyond its initial application.. while they complain about the wts's action, at the same time these people make their own secondary applications to prophecies, such as with micah 5:2. these people also find "greater" meaning to historical statements, such as at isaiah 9:6 and at isaiah 53.. such passages had their local meaning yet people are prepared to find their "greater application" which suits their ends, just as the wts does.
it is not an excuse to say that the nt writers indulged themselves in the practice.. i am not saying that i agree with the practice; i am simply seeking consistency and integrity.. doug.
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Bobcat
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New Covenant in this week's coverage
by waton inunexplained features: the covenant was with all of "gods people" not just the priests or kings.
the new covenant wt style be made only with the 144 000 king priests and not all members of the "israel of god" ?.
if the new covenant is for the "forgiveness of sin" why is only .01 % of wt members covered by it?
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Bobcat
You can see the "out of" point with the "great crowd." They are "out of" (Greek particle ek) "every nation and tribe and people and tongue." It is obvious that the writer means that the great crowd is a sub-group from among those larger groups. (Many commentaries also see that description of the great crowd as an allusion to the Abrahamic covenant.)
Similarly, the 144,000 are "out of" (same Greek particle ek) all the tribes of Israel. And each sub group of 12,000 are "out of" each tribe. This whole group of 144,000 are a sub group of a larger group described as,"all the tribes of the sons of Israel."
As was pointed out, the great crowd is seen working in the "sanctuary" (Greek naos) where it would be forbidden for people outside of the covenant to be.
They've made themselves "white in the blood of the Lamb." This relates them to being in the New Covenant.
Rev 7:16-17 is a quotation from Isa 49:9-10 which describes God's people being restored to their covenant heritage.
Everything about the passage speaks of the great crowd being in a covenant relationship with God. The fact that WT commentary on this passage disregards all that can only mean that their commentary is nothing but a self-serving lie.
Incidentally, see this post to see how the two groups in Rev 7 relate to seals 5 & 6 in Rev 6
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New Covenant in this week's coverage
by waton inunexplained features: the covenant was with all of "gods people" not just the priests or kings.
the new covenant wt style be made only with the 144 000 king priests and not all members of the "israel of god" ?.
if the new covenant is for the "forgiveness of sin" why is only .01 % of wt members covered by it?
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Bobcat
3 This (i.e. 'praying to God for rulers so that Christians may go about life peacefully') is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, . . . (1Tim 2:3-6 ESV)
This passage agrees with your point. 'God desires all people (lit. "men") to be saved.' (1Tim 2:4) And there is a covenant for making that possible. The covenant is between "God" and "men" (same word for "people" above). And the "mediator" is Jesus. The only plausible covenant being spoken about would be the New Covenant.
Note the contrast between "men" (or "people") which is without the article, and "the man" (Christ Jesus). If "men" or "people" were referring to a very select group one would expect an articular "men."
The NWT wiggles around this problem by rendering "all people" as "all sorts of people." It is an anti-Christian rendering in that it denies a very large portion of Jesus' ransom. It could possibly be classed with 1Jo 2:22a.
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Holy spirit indwelling
by Ding inis it your understanding that any jw can have holy spirit indwell them or is that an experience a part of the anointing that the wt teaches is reserved for the 144,000?.
please provide references if you can..
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Bobcat
Here is an off-site thread wherein I layed out research I had done on the Greek family of words related to "anoint" and words that had some NT relation to them for any interested.
It is interesting that the phrase 'anointed Christian' never occurs in the NT. In fact, such a phrase would not be unlike 'liquid water' or some other such tautology.
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Two Bible Beliefs of Jehovah`s Witnesses ,Do They Align with each other ?
by smiddy3 in1.the first is 2 cor.4:4 that satan is "the god of this system of things" to blind the minds of the unbelievers etc.. so logically this "system of things" would mean the governments ,politicians, armed forces and law enforcement agency`s such as the police would it not?
so satan is in control of all of these under the banner of being the god of this system of things.?.
2. rom.13: 1-7 " let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities for their is no authority except by god".
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Bobcat
Hi Smiddy,
My thoughts . . . ? Well, first, the thread title. To be fair, what you are asking is more of a Bible proposition or problem rather than a JW one.
But, beyond that, the problem, as you stated it is, 'How can the governments of the world be both an arrangement of God and under the rulership of the devil?'
Have you considered the possibility that both are true? If the writer of Romans is the same as the writer of Corinthians (both writings claim to be written by Paul) then, this one writer believed that both propositions were true. As you pointed out, Rom 13 describes national governments to be "an arrangement of God. And he believed that, "the things the nations sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God." (1Co 10:20) So, how could Paul think that both conditions were true?
When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, one of the temptations involved showing Jesus all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth. The devil then tells Jesus, "To you I will give all this authority and their glory, for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will. (Lu 4:5-6 ESV)
The devil is claiming that authority over the nations was "delivered" (or "handed over," or "relinquished") to him. The passive verb suggests that it was God who did this 'handing over.' (What is known as a "divine passive"; same verb used to describe Jesus being "handed over" for execution.) And Satan knew who Jesus was and where he came from. Logically, there must be some truth in the statement for it to be a temptation for Jesus. Satan is saying that he got the authority from a source that Jesus would view as legitimate, his own Father.
Rev 13:2 describes the devil (the "dragon") as giving the 'beast out of the sea' "power and a throne and great authority." This order, the 'beast' coming into existence first, and then the devil giving it "great authority," this ordering would place the tower of Babel incident as the point in time in which the newly forming human kingdom was "handed over" to Satan, A sort of 'divide and conquer' event. It is only after that that the great empires of the Bible begin to appear.
Of course, that does not explain why God would want such an arrangement. Anyways, you asked for thoughts. . .
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The Church Father's "70 years"
by Doug Mason inin their letter to lobsto regarding the neo-babylonian chronology, the wts wrote the following regarding the early church fathers:.
less than 200 years after josephus, several early church writers clearly accepted that the length of the desolation or exile was 70 years, and no one gives any other length for this event.
for instance, tatian the assyrian (110 to 172 c.e.
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The Watchtower Society want basic human rights but ''somehow'' deny disfellowshipped members theirs
by RULES & REGULATIONS injehovah’s witnesses imprisoned for their faith—by location.
locations where jehovah’s witnesses are put in prison, sometimes under harsh conditions, for practicing their faith and exercising basic human rights.. .
others are imprisoned for their conscientious objection to military service.. watchtower society: please don't lecture anyone on the denial of basic human rights when you take away the rights of disfellowshipped family members associating with their family and friends!.
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Bobcat
Marked. Good post and appreciate the links. The WT's shunning propaganda is a vile corruption of Christianity, and is really meant to protect their authority, just as the shunning that went on in among the 1st century Jews was also meant to protect the authority of its religious leaders.
Funny how human power tends to corrupt. (Eccl 4:1)
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In-depth breakdown of the WTF QUOTES from November 2019 Watchtower
by Fabian1 in13. according to leviticus 9:23, 24, how did jehovah show his approval of the priesthood?.
when the israelites saw this clear evidence of jehovah’s backing of the priests, they had good reason to give them full support.
5:18, 19) how can we show our support for the organization that jehovah is using?
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Bobcat
Marked.
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To Active JW's Who Think Outside the Box: 2 Thessalonians 2:11, 12 Reconsidered...
by MADMARY inwatchtower society “contradicts” the bible – where and why?.
god's word certainly warns anyone who would dare, or be so audacious to deliberately change, twist or distort his holy message of truth by saying:.
“5 every saying of god is refined.
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Bobcat
It may not be as blatant as that. The verse starts out, literally, "And through this . . ." (καὶ διὰ τοῦτο . . .).
Depending on what you take "this" (τοῦτο) as referring to, the next part, "God sends . . ." (literally, "sends himself the God . . ." or "God himself sends . . .") could be understood or interpreted passively, even though the verb "sends" is active (and emphatic also). True, it (the NWT rendering) is a departure from the literal active meaning of "sends." But I think they are interpreting "this" to be referring to what Satan does in verses 9 & 10, and in effect, they are making God the 'passive allower' (if you will).
In effect, God has put Satan in a position to where Satan sees the need to pursue "this" scheme, and, having put Satan in the position where he needs to do "this", God simply 'allows' or 'lets" Satan proceed to do what was prophetically expected of him.
I see your point that the verb "sends" is active. And I do appreciate your pointing this out. It is interesting that the NWT engages in a bit of interpretation here. But I don't see it being all that significant in this instance.
Maybe if I look at your argument a little longer my view will change some.
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WT / JW Doctrine ,Satan cast out of Heaven in 1914 ? He has always had access to the earth ? Since Eve .
by smiddy3 inthis doctrine / belief that jehovah`s witnesses have , surely raises a few questions that they do not address.. 1.this spirit being challenged god by questioning his authority and offering eve an alternative making himself satan.. and this took place on earth ,the garden of eden.
so he who became satan had access to the earth.. 2. all throughout the old testament , the hebrew scriptures do we find examples of satan interfering with gods plan of things either by himself or his followers .. 3.their are just too many examples to list individually ,however a few key ones would be , the nephilim , job when god in heaven asks him where he has been , and his reply , from roving about on the earth .
, etc.etc.. 4.and of course in the new testament , where jesus is taken up into a mountain to be tempted by satan for fourty days ?.
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