Posts by noonehome

9

Comparison too severe?

by stirred but not shaken in

the other night i watched a documentary about hitler's germany involving valkyries.

it had to do with the "resistance" movement and the attempt to assassinate hitler to stop his madness.

those involved were elite officers in the military, and there were many and they were often prominent, barons, counts, etc.

Although the degrees of evil being practiced are vastly more extreme on the Nazi-side of things, I'd think there's a direct relationship in the way the brains are functioning in Nazi officers involved in genocidal activity, ideological extremists involved in mass murder, and yes, Jehovah's Witnesses involved in shunning. It's the way the mind rationalizes doing something despicable in the name of loyalty - or whatever it is that's propelling them.

Obviously shunning or any other destructive practices JW's engage in aren't nearly as evil as participating in the holocaust, but the brain still has to reconcile what it's doing and how it's thinking. Despite doing something evil, it is somehow good. I believe whenever a JW has to shun - and I've been face-to-face shunned hardcore by people I love and who 'love' me (I'm not even d'fd) - although being uncomfortable by behaving so inhumanely and being forced to rectify the cognitive dissonance to behave so unlovingly to a loved one, there's definitely a degree of satisfaction they feel for having 'done the right thing.' Obedience is the ultimate quality. It's gross.

I'm not a neuroscientist or psychologist, but I've read some interesting conversation on the matter and I think behaving in an evil manner uses similar mental faculties and processes regardless of the type or degree of evil being performed.

That being said there are many factors at play and I don't want to over-simplify what's involved or lessen the persecution of Hitler's victims. But it would appear mind control can work in many degrees.

19

Jw's don't let their kids die because of blood...

by freemindfade in

another nauseating detail i remember from saturdays program.

there is a video (one of so many) shaming young people for being afraid to admit they are jw's.

one australian girl talks about how one of her teachers was saying jw's let their children die over the blood issue (fact) and she goes on to say how that is not true.

noonehome

Morpheus if this is the demo I think you're referring to: http://rutube.ru/video/bb1018e6aebbf0a3350b31a25781755f/ the version I witnessed today wasn't nearly as hard hitting. The older couple involved had notes in their bibles that they referred to, as did several interviewees throughout the session and it was all quite rehearsed-sounding as usual. They said that because of the way they'd raised their child to study before meetings, and because they'd made clear to them where their loyalties laid, the child "returned to Jehovah."

On another note, during my extended wandering, I missed part of a video about a brother trying to explain the 1914 doctrine to a study. The first "not-how-to-do-it" version I missed most of but was basically the brother explaining the calculations in rapid succession, with numbers and dates spat out too quick to digest with quick edits to convey the overwhelming nature of his teaching technique. I did hear him mention 607 very clearly. The next version was the approved way, and it showed the brother asking the study questions that helped him realize the relevance and importance of Jerusalem and how everything relates to 1914, but then when they're about to get into the actual technicalities it fades out. I'd be interested in seeing the full version of the first one to since I missed it and try to get a hold of what's actually being said.

5

Galapagos

by noonehome in

jw
friends

hey just wanted some advice...don't really know anywhere else to get it.

things sort of hit the fan a while ago...i appealed a d'ff decision and actually succeeded, but i haven't been unscathed.

i'm in a pretty bad place.

noonehome

Hey just wanted some advice...don't really know anywhere else to get it. Things sort of hit the fan a while ago...I appealed a d'ff decision and actually succeeded, but I haven't been unscathed. Anyway, I'm not really sure what to do about anything right now. I'm in a pretty bad place. I'm busy working but it's a struggle to get through each day. things have been escalating for a few years so after school I biked around Iceland to get some distance....but when I got back my worst fears started happening. I already need to get away again.

I've got student loans to worry about...so not sure it's the wisest thing to do right now but I've decided I have to go somewhere far for a bit come February. In another thread I expressed my desire to volunteer abroad somewhere.... And Ive been looking around at some interesting opportunities. I've applied for this one http://www.ioi.ec/volunteer-galapagos and I've been invited. I've been working in broadcasting as a camera / editor with tiny bit of website / social media experience since finishing college last April, so it's kind of perfect for me in that I'd keep gaining experience. Ideally, I hope to one day be able to make money off of YouTube or something...I dont want to work for a company. Something like this might point me in the right direction for that... I don't know.

The thing with this is that the maximum you can stay (unless they hire you or something?) is 3 months. I'd be down for that. longer the better. however, the cost for 3 months is $3700. That's a heck of a lot. It includes visas and meals and housing and everything...but not flight.

I can't afford that...but I sort of don't care. My sanity is worth more. What do you think? Should I think about something else? I live at home now.... and I worry about coming back after the 3 months being broke and jobless in the same mess. (Unless things resolve themselves in that time? Ha!) I don't have to do 3 months but I'd like to be away. I know I can move out instead... But I seriously worry about myself living alone here ... I don't think I'd do anything but sometimes im unsure - starting out adult life in such rough shape trying to find my place in the working world with nothing to look forward to sounds worse than a bit of debt right now. this would be good for me, albeit prob temporary. Just wondering if you guys think it's legit...I'm no sucker but prob a little easier to scam at this time.

Cheers

(written from phone)

45

Are you afraid something horrible will happen to you now you have left the Wt.

by Still Totally ADD in

jw
friends

i remember many years ago we would talk about those who leave the org.

something bad will happen to them.

because god was mad at them for turning away from the wt.

noonehome

Read Deuteronomy chapter 28 for some perspective. The whole thing. If god exists, (which I've found myself doubting lately), no less this specific one written about in Hebrew, then he is capable of causing to become incomprehensible cruelty. Think about what it would take for anyone to not only orchestrate and maneuver but also desire the kinds of abhorrent barbarity written about in Deuteronomy 28 and much of the bible, to be executed onto you personally. Surely a sickening thought.

Any rational person should be moved to the realization that fear and superstition no longer functions today like it did back then. Of course you won't be driven by god to eat your own children. If that happens, you are 100% to blame for choosing to do that. But please don’t, I’ll send you some animal crackers. Likewise, if something bad happens to someone who leaves the organization, it’s simply a product of chance …or a combination of chance, poor decision-making, and maybe ignorance (all likely caused by damaging psychological effects and emotional baggage, not to mention the healthy required serving of guilt).

If this god really exists and truly desires to carry out such divine punishments on petty ignorant and imperfect human beings, the universe is much bigger than it needs to be for such a tiny worldview.

Any human would consider the leader of a nation who behaved exactly as YHWH did as behaving immorally much of the time. Surely the god of the universe and his morality would supersede and be 'righter' than any human’s. Of course, it’s possible we've fallen so far from perfection that our innate sense of righteousness is so wrong that human suffering is really a universal good thing. But again, superstition holds no place here.

All that being said, it certainly isn't easy to scan those verses and not think about it, as ridiculous as it reads. Like it’s been said, the realization that I could be wrong is what educates me and I’ve found myself coming towards radically different conclusions than I ever would’ve expected as a kid or teenager. But I’m still willing to be wrong about TTATT, and maybe that’s why folks like you and I hold onto fear. I haven’t left by the way.

38

My appeal was successful. Now what?

by noonehome in

faders: why do we bother staying in?.

we cling to some false hope that people we love will accept us despite our not believing, even though its as much a fairytale as the dogmas based on untruths.. ive never been anything but a good friend and human being and would do anything for the people i love; i couldnt dream of shutting out someone i care about.

and its not like theyd revel in the idea of doing it either, yet its seen as not just the only choice, but also as undoubtedly the right thing to do.

noonehome

That's hilarious Outlaw... yup pretty much.

Thanks for all the comments and good vibes everyone. Too bad we can't all talk in person. But yeah, I feel a hard fade coming. I spent a month biking and tenting around a country to get some clarity...I've been back for a month and I'm already feeling fuzzy. I might travel somewhere again on my own if it's viable ($tudent loan$ ).

--

"Maybe after a bit of time goes by, I will try harder to forget those people, my long ago friends. No one lives close by to me. I don't see them. They are just etched in my heart."

LoisLane that's devastating. Of course, the hope is that as time goes on, these ones will slowly realize reality and wake up to the choices they've made and the people they've hurt ...what a waste all those years of pettiness were. If only they realized how damaging their actions are. That's the hope.

My sister and I remain close and have talked about allot of things recently I never thought possible. Keep in mind she was one of those semi-judgemental pioneers a mere few months ago who would've happily shunned me. Just goes to show you never know who's gonna wake up. It frustrates me the way people look down at her now.

--

To answer your questions: As for the person who turned me in... She’s very intelligent and thinks about things more deeply than most people, but has a tendency to make rash decisions or act with indecisiveness. Though I somewhat suffer the same indecisiveness in my own day-to-day life. We weren't really set up for independent thinking, which is seen as evil. She's felt bad and has tried to involve herself with the elder’s meddlings. I know she's struggled with doubts before, but I don't think she could ever be decisive enough to seriously analyze things. She puts allot of stock into the organization. Like most JWs believe (including myself, even now sort of) there’s nothing outside of the organization, so even if it’s not the truth, there’s still no better way of life. She’s an amazing person with so much potential but I think she's trapped for good and would feel lost without the org. I do at least see it as a very effective outlet for her goodness. My fear is that she won't get back all that she gives.

So that being said, as much as it hurts, I know her motives are "good" in the sense that she wants to help me, and to her the only way I can be helped is by way of the elders. Because of course, unless I shun my sister and uphold every irrational JW belief about history, the world and the universe, I'm considered spiritually sick, perhaps threatening. Her wanting to "limit association" sucks considering how close we are and I know she regrets it to some extent... to be honest I don't know where she's at with that right now. Like I said I don't think she really knows what to do, but will do whatever the org or fellow JW’s tell her is right. The cognitive dissonance must be working overtime. We haven’t talked in a couple weeks. This whole situation kind of reinforces my belief I hold towards everyone I’m close to that they mean more to me then I do to them. I’ve sort of given up socially the past couple weeks with all my friends. I do know she loves me very much though and she’s having a tough time. It just angers me that there’s no logical reason for her to feel that way or to feel like she’s going through something.

I know I'm probably making everything harder for myself than it has to be which is why I started this thread wondering what the point is. I guess I just need to feel that the stove is hot instead of taking everyone's word not to hold my hand to it.

38

My appeal was successful. Now what?

by noonehome in

faders: why do we bother staying in?.

we cling to some false hope that people we love will accept us despite our not believing, even though its as much a fairytale as the dogmas based on untruths.. ive never been anything but a good friend and human being and would do anything for the people i love; i couldnt dream of shutting out someone i care about.

and its not like theyd revel in the idea of doing it either, yet its seen as not just the only choice, but also as undoubtedly the right thing to do.

noonehome

Yeah just a bit of rambling on a lonely thanksgiving, sorry folks. This site is good for that. Being alone with my thoughts hasn't been very productive lately, though I've lost count over the number of mind-opening books and topics I've read (and drinks consumed )

38

My appeal was successful. Now what?

by noonehome in

faders: why do we bother staying in?.

we cling to some false hope that people we love will accept us despite our not believing, even though its as much a fairytale as the dogmas based on untruths.. ive never been anything but a good friend and human being and would do anything for the people i love; i couldnt dream of shutting out someone i care about.

and its not like theyd revel in the idea of doing it either, yet its seen as not just the only choice, but also as undoubtedly the right thing to do.

noonehome

Faders: why do we bother staying in?

We cling to some false hope that people we love will accept us despite our not believing, even though it’s as much a fairytale as the dogmas based on untruths.

I’ve never been anything but a good friend and human being and would do anything for the people I love; I couldn’t dream of shutting out someone I care about. And it’s not like they’d revel in the idea of doing it either, yet it’s seen as not just the only choice, but also as undoubtedly the right thing to do. The right and wholesome thing. Why the hell can’t people recognize our incredibly humble place in the universe? We live our entire life on a razor’s edge of non-existence and nobody realizes how precious we are to each other.

I’m not even disfellowshipped. But I’ve been through the fire and my heart goes out now more than ever before to everyone who is.

Recently the decision was made to disfellowship me for apostasy - on grounds that were never made clear. In fact, I was given two choices before literally being kicked out of my own kingdom hall and the door slammed: that I either attend a judicial meeting or write a letter of disassociation. The grounds / charges were refused. The red-faced elder I’ve known my whole life verbally refused to shake my hand, shutting the door as I faced him calmly asking why he wouldn’t. I was surprised because I barely even said anything I’d consider incriminating; in fact, I was legitimately looking for help if it could be offered (which of course I know it can’t because “truth” is based on unreality and ignorance of reality. But maybe I needed to prove that to others and myself). All that happened was I admitted to having legitimate doubts, but that fact alone was enough to label me as an apostate without even knowing the specifics of the doubts, attempting to address them, or ascertaining my motives... which I made clear weren’t to spread the doubts (I never have...not easy but true) but to receive help.

At the judicial meeting they decided to disfellowship me for grounds I was none the wiser to. I had to ask for the scriptural reason which they finally gave me after the pronouncement, after some confusion amongst themselves as to which one it was. Throughout the meeting they openly admitted that truth presupposes itself, which makes no sense and confirms their delusion.

For whatever reason I appealed the decision and at the appeal meeting the decision was reversed. It does happen I guess so long as you keep your cool and are smart about it, and most importantly if the appeal elders are slightly more rational. The appeal elders actually hugged me on my way out.

So where does this leave me? Right back to where I’ve been the past 3 years. Living in limbo. Only now the person I care about the most and largely the reason I’ve kept trying all this time feels like she should “limit her association” with me. It was her who alerted the elders after a picture of my ear was seen sitting next to my sister (who was recently disfellowshipped for, you guessed it, apostasy). I’m not even kidding: my ear.

So what’s the point? I have many good friends and I’m sure you have your reasons for sticking it through, but I’m starting to think our love for them is one-sided. It’s pretty painful to realize how little it takes to be treated so horribly by those you’re closest to. And they think they’re doing something righteous. How many poor “mentally diseased” victims have killed themselves over these purported acts of righteousness? It’s pretty sickening.

The elders asked me if I thought any bible principles were harmful to follow, fishing for their own presupposed answer. I had to bite my tongue but said that to pass my sister on the street and look away as she approached was harmful to me because not only would it rip my heart out, but it’d make her feel bad, and because I care about her would make me feel even worse, not to mention guilty for behaving so cruelly to another human being. I must stress that she is 100% Christian but simply woken up to the JW falsehoods. They said that it’s not always easy to follow Jehovah’s principles but we can have confidence they are worthwhile.

Bullshit. Treating someone cruelly is wrong. If God himself asked me to murder my son (if I had one) on a mountain I’d say NO regardless of what God thought. Even with the knowledge God could resurrect my child, I would refuse such a despicable request on the grounds that it is just that: despicable. Does that make me wicked? Haughty? I’d rather be ignorantly called those things than to do something I consider disgusting. It’s rather shameful when someone you love won’t stand up for their love like you would for them, and then justify it with some deluded form of tyrannical loyalty, acting as if they're the victim. And again, I’m not even disfellowshipped, but I feel like I’ve been in denial all these years and I’m starting to get it. Sorry to all of you who experience this on a mass scale. I'm not a bitter person but I'm beginning to understand where it comes from.

Like most of you, I just wish people would realize how precious we are to each other and how petty the things are that keep us apart.

34

Why is shunning wrong?

by noonehome in

consider an example i often hear.

youre sitting at a dinner table.

the topic of conversation is regarding your mother.

noonehome

Thanks for all your comments.

I'm currently facing a situation where I'm expected to shun a family member who was just recently disfellowshipped for apostasy (which is ridiculous...I've been mentally out for 2 years and all of a sudden this person steals my thunder out of nowhere?). Her and her husband were both regular pioneers literally weeks ago. I went to his public talk a few months ago. Of course I will not shun these people. In fact, I'm meeting them for breakfast. If anyone saw me with them that'd be it for me. I never thought THAT would be my exit.

I'm expected to be the strong one.... to show where I stand. Put Jehovah to the test. Shun the person I grew up with who shares the same blood as me. Why on earth would I do that? "Because you have to look at the big picture... By having anything to do with them it shows you think what they have done is ok." What they have done? For god's sake they're still Christians. But actually importantly, they are GOOD PEOPLE. And they are family. I'm the one who questions the bible in secret and I'm expected to uphold destructive teachings that go beyond what it even says.

Over the course of 2 years my subtle optimism of being able to explain my doubts so that I wouldn't be shunned have diminished almost completely. I'm truly disturbed by the way I now know I'll be viewed and treated by the people I love most. I speak of it as an inevitability because just as Winston knew he'd face the death penalty for thoughtcrime, I know it's only a matter of time before I'm given the boot. That forever-stamping boot. I guess I just wanted to understand why I'll deserve that in their minds.

34

Why is shunning wrong?

by noonehome in

consider an example i often hear.

youre sitting at a dinner table.

the topic of conversation is regarding your mother.

noonehome

Consider an example I often hear. You’re sitting at a dinner table. The topic of conversation is regarding your mother. Wild accusations are thrown in your face. Certain ones claim she is a liar, a prostitute, and evil, calling her terrible names. How would your mother feel about you associating with people who slander her? Obviously such claims about most people’s mothers would be quite extreme and do of course come across as slanderous falsehoods. At any rate, would you not be justified in cutting off association with such individuals?

(Interestingly in this example the validity of the claims are never scrutinized or dealt with. It is simply a matter of immediate action by means of loyalty to your mother and her feelings.)

The business of shunning is difficult and frustrating. You have a situation where the shunning is seemingly justified: a situation of loyalty. From a JW perspective, associating with apostates is akin to agreeing with them. This is where it gets tricky, because then the only way to actually associate with an alleged apostate is to agree with what they think, and to agree with what they think is to be one. That is a terrible notion.

Try to remember that Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t want to not be Jehovah’s Witnesses. That is, in fact, the worst thing imaginable and to them the reason for mankind’s hopeless condition. Adam and Eve, universal sovereignty …murder of billions at Armageddon and all that jazz. You remember.

Every JW made a dedication… we all did folks. No matter one’s reason to leave, be it the pursuit of intellectual honesty or escape from abuse or one of the million and a half other reasons, it’s something seen as inexcusable, a shame, and 100% WRONG because of that dedication you made. That's why you are shunned. Loyalty to Big Brother.

They keep saying you have to see the big picture. I keep wanting to say that WE ARE the big picture ...we’re only alive for a short period of time and are very lucky to be HERE, TOGETHER, on this TINY speck hurtling through a universe that by a massive margin is designed to kill all living things instantly. We're all alone in this together and it's such a shame to see the immense pettiness that keeps people who love each other very much, completely compartmentalized by their own ignorance. Collectively, as humanity, we're all guilty of it to various degrees.

Anyways. I’d like to hear people’s objective thoughts on the justification of shunning.

5

I want it to be the truth, but I don't believe it. Unless I do but don't want to. Huh?

by noonehome in

if i did believe, i think i could have what it takes to be what's considered a 'good jw'....being a missionary actually really appeals to me.

but obviously i couldn't live that life if i didn't believe in my heart it's the truth.

i'm young, and interested in doing some kind of humanitarian work... kind of a secular equivalent of "serving where the need is greater.

noonehome

If I did believe, I think I could have what it takes to be what's considered a 'good jw'....being a missionary actually really appeals to me. But obviously I couldn't live that life if I didn't believe in my heart it's the truth.

I'm young, and interested in doing some kind of humanitarian work... kind of a secular equivalent of "serving where the need is greater." I'm not really sure where in life this would get me...missionaries believe they'll be taken care of by god and have that nifty hope of paradise. This life is just their ticket to the eternal chocolate factory. I don't really have any of that anymore, but I do still care about things like world conditions and suffering... probably more so than before actually.

Has anyone ever looked into volunteering abroad or anything? Building wells and the like... I don't even know. I'd have no idea where to start or how to finance myself in that kind of a lifestyle or what kind of future it brings. But I have that need to be involved in something important and have much love for and interest in others... just without belief. It's strange. Because that could be channeled as a good JW ...but falsely. Maybe I do believe and I'm in denial because I feel guilty for not believing. Does that even make sense? Can I believe again if I really went for it, or is that just self-willed brainwash? There's nobody I can talk to about this stuff and I feel like a crazy bastard. Maybe I should just go to bed.