Quotes

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  41

  Who is the Faithful and Discrete Slave?

  by Etude in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  recently, i've had memories about that topic, which i had suppressed for a long time.

  my original question came up when i encountered a few members of the "anointed" in my congregation (we're talking almost 30 years ago).. there was one sister who partook of the "emblems" who had come from cuba.

  i learned from her that her health was frail because she had smuggled some expensive jewelry in a condom and stuck it up her colon.

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  Quotes

  Farkel asked:
  ==========
  Could anyone with authority in the WTS who is NOT on the GB go to New York and "straighten them out?" Sure he could, and his ass would get booted clear across the Brooklyn Bridge into lower Manhattan!
  ==========
  
  I had a pre-1935 annointed in my congregation when I was a kid. In retrospect, this gentleman received his communication from God's holy spirit in the same way the rest of us did: he read about it in the pages of the Watchtower.
  
  If you are not in Bethel, being annointed gives you a fancy title, and absolutely nothing else.
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  45

  Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes

  by Quotes in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today.

  but first, a quick background.... my wife and i have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!

  ) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations.

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  Quotes

  FreeWilly, I remember reading your post of your encounter. Good job! Their old testament god was/is a cruel, killing, uncompassionate ethnic cleanser.
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  45

  Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes

  by Quotes in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today.

  but first, a quick background.... my wife and i have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!

  ) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations.

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  Quotes

  (Quotes awakes to find he has been socially validated, and has a warm fuzzy feeling in his belly)
  
  Thanks everybody! I guess from my experience you can see that you don't have to know much about JWs mythology and problems in order to engage a JW; you just need to be reasonably skeptical and use common sense.
  
  I forgot to add in my initial post: when she was speaking about the bible, I asked if I could see hers for a second because I had a question for her (remember I told her I knew a few things about the bible). First, I asked her if she/her religion held that Moses wrote the first five books of the bible; she agreed that was so. I turned to the last paragraphs of Deuteronomy, where the write (supposedly Moses) speaks in the third person, about how old Moses was (past tense) and where Moses was (past tense) when he died. I said it is unlikely that Moses wrote this himself; she said something about being inspired by god; I said (smiling and in a friendly way!!!) that I hope that isn't true, I think it would be cruel and unusual for god to tell Moses to write about the time and location of his own death! Naturally, she changed the subject and spoke about Moses couldn't enter the promised land because of his pride when he produced water from the rock. I caught her on this one and I steered us back to the subject at hand, saying, "Yes, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about: how does this writing supposedly by Moses speak in the past tense about Moses death? (smile, smile, smile)"
  
  stevenyc: I agree, she definately was, I think, about to say "... people", like we don't want (for our cult club) dishonest people, we want honest people only! (heh heh heh, perhaps because JWs can train them to be dishonest, so want to start with a blank slate.
  
  Littletoe: glad you took no offence. You are a champ, and gentleman, and a scholar.
  
  cruzanheart and Doubtfully Yours: I agree with cruzanheart on this one; I don't think her apostate warning went off. Mostly because I never once questioned the authority of the WTS. I was merely asking hard-hitting questions about either the bible, or what she stated HER beliefs were.
  
  kwintestal and PaNiCAtTaCk: I have already used my amazing powers of prediction and said to my wife: "I'll bet that next time she comes back with a man. I'm certain of it." If it happens, I'll be one-for-one in my ability to tell the future. Maybe I can write a bible chapter? ;)
  
  rebel8: Yes, my dad knows about the Quotes site. You can read about our "discussion" here: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/18/78073/1.ashx
  
  Scully: Yup, my hopping around must really be a curve ball for them. Rest assured, that even assuming the few details I gave above are accurate (as accurate as any measurement of the Pyramid of Gizeh, anyway) and assuming I didn't change the name of the "Sisters", then that narrows it down to an area with probably half the population of Canada. Heh heh heh. You hear that Shane Brady and Glen How? I'm hiding in plain site. And you'll never know where! Better to just cancel door-to-door witnesses throughout Ontario; it's just too risky!
  
  damselfly: If you did meet someone like me in service, I probably would have tried the old "open bath robe trick" on you.
  
  To everyone else: thanks for your input. I'm glad you enjoyed.
  
  ~Quotes, of the "Passive Aggressive" class
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  45

  Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes

  by Quotes in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today.

  but first, a quick background.... my wife and i have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!

  ) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations.

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  Quotes

  Aha, SNG is still awake!
  
  Thanks for the feedback.
  
  Oh, since I'm posting, I want to restate something. When I said above "I politely disagreed, as an engineer I am trained to understand there is a huge difference between a ball and a circle" that is pretty much what I actually said.
  
  But, I should have corrected myself. I think I learned the difference between circle and ball in kindergarden; you don't need to be an engineer to know that a ball and a cirlce are hardly interchangable!
  
  ~Quotes, of the "3D geometry is 50% harder than 2D geometry" class
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  45

  Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes

  by Quotes in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today.

  but first, a quick background.... my wife and i have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!

  ) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations.

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• 

  Quotes

  (After typing out and formatting this experience, Quotes waits for response and suggestions... and waits, and waits)
  
  Oh, this will teach me not to post in the middle of the night when no one is here! Darn!
  
  ~Quotes, of the "looking for social validation" class
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  45

  Anti-Witnessesing: Passive Agressive Style Effective for Quotes

  by Quotes in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today.

  but first, a quick background.... my wife and i have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!

  ) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Quotes

  Well, they came magazine selling door-knocking ingathering and judgeing witnessing today. But first, a quick background...

  My wife and I have a investment property 90 minutes away from our home (a mistake btw; always invest closer to your home!) and we've been there (here) full time for the past several days doing some renovations. (I mention this only for the benefit of those that know me personally; I live in a secure building and it is usually impossible for them to come door knocking at my real home, although they did telephone witness to me once). The JWs have called before at this location and spoken with my wife, when I was not present. I have previously asked her to be friendly with JWs and remember to think of them like my dear mother: trapped victims who need help, not anger. (My wife was never a JW).

  Well, they came door-knocking today (Tuesday, approx 10am -- we must have been the first call -- hooray, we must be special to be first; and on a week day too!), and I was ready, but only by accident. I've spent the past few evenings at the James Randi Educational Foundation website (www.randi.org) and as a result was in a very "Skeptical" mood (which I feel is a good thing, generally). This actually put me in the perfect frame of mind, ready to stop them at any point they drifted into absurdity (which didn't take long). Part of me wanted to simple call them "woo-woos" and slam the door, but at the same time, I try to remember that these people are victims and they need to be given the tools to free themselves from their mental enslavement and bondage, and I wish someone would have done this for me once upon a time. So...

  I played the part of "open minded skeptic, willing to learn facts and examine evidence, but not afraid to ask the hard-hitting questions" -- which is generally my personality anyway. All I had to do was deliberatey hide my extensive knowledge of the inner workings and massive problems with their religion, since revealing my agenda would probably scare them off, and that wouldn't help them at all.

  Dana

  (who, I learned, is a Canadian of Italian heritage) "took the call", and was working with her mother Maria (who never, ever, spoke one word except for "Hello" and "Goodbye", and I don't even know if she speaks any english); she looks like a lovely Italian grandmother -- but wearing that pathetic JW fashion statement -- but frankly she was better dressed than Thirty-something Dana (!!!???))). As the call wore on to over 30 to 40 mintues, I began to feel sorry for Maria: she was clearly phsyically uncomfortable, repeatedly was shifting her weight, slipping a foot out of her shoes, leaning on the wall, and generally giving off subtle signs of phsyical discomfort. In retrospect, I should have invited them in, but there is no furniture here, and in the game I'm playing it would be too soon to invite them in on the "first call" -- can't appear too eager!

  After introducing herself and explaining she had previously spoken to my wife (who joined me at the door after a few minutes) Dana started with the usual:

  "Do you ever wonder if we'll ever see an end to the problems in the world?"

  Confused, I responded "Problems???? What problems?"

  Dana: "You know, war, disease, famine"

  In a friendly but deliberately passive-aggressive way (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive), I spent the next several minutes educating her about how this is the BEST time in human history. Although not perfect, things are far better than ever:

  • longer life spans
  • less crime, less violent crime: New York City is much safer than is was just 30 years ago. I asked

  "Do you personally know anyone that was the victim of a violent crime? My wife's aunt was mugged in Romania last week, but before that, I know no-one who has been robbed. But go back just a hundred years or more, and violent crime in big cities like London or NYC were the rule, not the exception"
• fewer people hungry (both in absolute numbers and as percentage of population) (I should have mentioned Norman Borlaug -- Thanks, Penn & Teller! -- , but forgot: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug)
• better lifestyle (the average person living in a cramped studio apartment in New York City enjoys a better quality of life than did a King just a few hundred years ago).
• Toilet paper is a relatively new invention! You do NOT want to know what they did before T.P.
• fewer wars, shorter wars, wars affecting less of the population

Dana agreed with all this; she was VERY non-confrontational, and kept saying "yes" as I made my points. I wonder if she actually agreed with me, or if she was just being polite since this was her first time speaking with me.

She said "So I guess you are what we'd call an optimist" .

"No",

I replied, "I think I am realist. I'm just being realistic."

BTW, on this Tuesday morning, everything in this neighborhood was PERFECT. The temperature was comfortable, birds chirped, June-bugs buzzed. If Wally and The Beaver had walked around the corner, I would not have been surprised. To suggest that this is a living hell that needs divine correction, is crazy talk. But I restrained myself from saying that.

Naturally, Dana changed the subject (!!!). I forget exactly how she segued, but soon she mentioned something about

"we hear so much about a World Government"

Resisting the urge to say "No... no, we don't!!!", I instead said

"What? What do you mean World Government? What are you talking about?" (Again, spending a few days on Randi.org helped put me in the right frame of mind: ask the hard-hitting questions at the first sign of nonsense).

Dana:

"You know, the United Nations, was fomed to create a World Government"

I politely explained how I disagree with that claim; the UN was formed to help enable the peacful cooperation of the world leaders, not to form a world government. It is not perfect, but is is a useful platform that has a long list of success stories:

• preventing and resolving conflicts
• peace-keeping
• helping to reduce disease
• helping to feed the poor and get food around corrupt officials and into the hands of the hungry people

I then used an analogy, and compared it to this neighborhood. If, for example, my neighbor and I had a disagreement over the location of a proposed fence, instead of coming to blows, a neighborhood owners co-op (which we don't have, but just as an example) could instead resolve this problem. Those same neutral-party neighbors could break up a fight, or stop if from coming to blows. As a member of said co-op, I would be losing neither ownership nor autonomy of my own property; just as members of the UN do not become part of a "World Government". (Yes, I know, I should have mentioned the 'WTS becomes UN NGO' fiasco, but it is way too soon for that. So, I bit my lip.)

After agreeing with me (

"Yes, that's true..." ) Dana did what any good JW should do. Can you guess? That's right, she changed the subject. Again. Or perhaps she was just getting back to the point she was making re: World Government.

She says

"In Daniel, in the bible, Daniel speaks about various world powers: the Greek, the Persian, the Anglo-American..."

[Interupting]

"Whoah! What are you talking about? Daniel mentioned *America*? That's impossible. America is only a couple hundred years old, and did not exist in Daniel's time."

She was caught off guard, and said something about

"we know that he was using symbolism to refer to the Anglo-American empire" so I asked, with a friendly smile, "What???? What symbol??? How do we know that this 'symbol' meant USA? Was the symbol the Stars and Stripes???". At this point, my wife laughed, but Dana didn't. Maria continued shifting her weight in her uncomfortable silence.

Dana admits she doesn't know what symbol it was (or perhaps she was using spiritual warfare and did not want to explain the crazy, multi-material statue in Daniel's schizophrenic writings on her first visit), but she promised to look it up and get back to me.

Getting back to her point, she reads the scripture in Daniel about end to the kings of the world.

"See, when the bible says Kings, it means world powers..." and I'm thinking, but did not say, 'Or, maybe it means exactly what is says: kings!'

She spoke of the incoming God ruled government.

"hhhmmm..." I asked, "so, how, *exactly*, will god communicate and make his will known in this government? Will he manifest himself as a human in flowing robes, sitting on a throne speaking orders? Exactly how will the communication of the affairs of state take place?"

She asked

"well, how do we get orders from our government today?"

"OK... Parliament meets in a public forum and passes laws. We can view the process in person or on TV or read about it in the newspaper. Those laws are put down on paper. There is a clear paper trail and an obvious source of the new laws. If we don't like the government, we know who is to blame and can vote them out of office. So I still ask: how will we get the laws communicated to us? Will god be here speaking to us in the flesh?"

She pulled out a scripture about Christ ruling "from heaven".

"OK, but that still doesn't answer the question, in fact it makes things more difficult. How will we know that god is in control? How will he communicate with his subjects? Where does 'the rubber meet the road'? Will writing appear in the sky? On the wall? If someone here on earth is in charge under god's control, how will we know they are really communicating with god/jesus? Will god call on the telephone? Send telegrams? Email? Ultimately we humans need to receive this communication from this divine ruler. How?"

"That's a good question. I don't know, but I will find out and get back to you. But we know from the bible that god spoke to Moses with a voice from a burning bush."

"Well, I hope in this government you speak of there will be more than just the word of ONE PERSON who CLAIMS to have heard the voice of God. Frankly, if anyone came to you today and claimed that a burning bush was talking to them..."

"... you wouldn't believe them."

"No, quite frankly I would probably call the hospital, as they clearly are in need of mental help."

She mentioned the faith in the bible, and when I pressed her for why, she mentioned generally, without any specifics, about fullfilled prophecy (which is a claim that his been throughly debunked, IMO -- no offence to you believers) and I politely told her so. She also mentioned the "proof" in Isaiah 40:22, "circle of earth". I exmplained to her that is says CIRCLE, not SPHERE or BALL; but other scriptures *DO* use a word for ball or sphere, so the concept of a three dimensional ball was known to them and there is a word for it [Isaiah 22:18, but I didn't have that handy at the time], and frankly this prooves the opposite: a two-dimensional pancake earth is described, which is does not demonstrate any special knowledge. Amazingly, Dana disagreed with this, and argued that because

"they are both round" they are interchangable. I politely disagreed, as an engineer I am trained to understand there is a huge difference between a ball and a circle.

Somehow, I got back to saying it is a *good* thing some people (i.e. not JWs) are working to try and improve the human condition today and not just "waiting on god"; it is all well and good to ask 'god' for guidance, but until he brings this "government" Dana spoke of, we should do something to help feed those hungry africans, today! Not next month, next year, but today! Children are starving -- although far less than in times past. (Here I was trying to open the door to ask her what charity acts JWs do, i.e. nothing except book peddling, but never got the chance.)

I also asked (smiling like the Cheshire cat)

"If god has the government in heaven, ready to rule from heaven, then what is he waiting for? If I personally had the power to stop world hunger, TODAY, I would do it -- no matter the cost -- even sell this house and live on the street, if I knew the sacrifice would solve the problem. Why does god continue this cruel inaction in the face of starving children?"

"Well, that's a good question, but maybe we could talk about it on our next visit."

[Am I the only one that sees the parallel here? I ask about why god delays and allows children to die when he has the power to stop it, and she delays here response until next time, even though she has the power to answer my question. People really do create gods in their own image.]

I told her I look forward to her next visit [true!]. I admitted,

"I'm open minded, but I'm also honest and will tell you when something doesn't make sense to me."

"Oh, that's good, we don't want any dishonest... [cutting herself off] ...I mean, it's good to be with someone who is honest."

I think she stopped herself because her first, more honest response, was, well, creepy and exclusive and elitist and reveals the cult-recruiting agenda -- in other words, such a statement could 'confuse newly interested ones,' as my father would say, and has said, about my Quotes website.

Also interesting to note: Dana never identified herself as as JW, but did mention the "Watch Tower Society" at least a couple of times. Jehovah's name was mentioned in passing once. I think it is very telling to see who, or what, gets TOP BILLING.

Dana left us with our own spiffy new copy of the "What Does God Require of Us?" brochure (yes, you know, the one with the lion holding the PLASTIC beech ball, next to the STEEL umbrella pole, surrounded by people with clothing obviously made in TEXTILE MILLS -- all thing anachronistic to the iron-age agrarian society of the Watchtower's "paradise". This is the same brochure with this scary image on page 11: (http://quotes.watchtower.ca/scans/1997_wt_sept_1_23_large.jpg) -- but I didn't mention any of that... this time). She said something about god uniformly requiring the same thing from all humans; I said

"I hope there is some room for adjustment; I would not expect one size shirt to fit everyone!"

She promised to come back with answers to my questions "next time". I wanted to pin her down to a day & time, but decided I don't want to look TOO eager. We shook hands and parted cordially -- the entire conversation was friendly and non-confrontational (ignoring my deliberate passive-aggressive agenda. Heh heh heh).

My lovely wife and I closed the door, and giggled for about five minutes. If only Dana knew she was speaking to an apostate who is SO apostate ("How apostate are you?") So apostate, that WTS lawyers are trying to shut me up!

~Quotes, of the "sowing seeds of rationalism" class