Shaun of the Dead isn't 'camp'! If you want to see camp see Rocky Horror Show.
Alucard
JoinedPosts by Alucard
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Awake Zombies!
by Alucard inthe walking dead - and we don't mean the gb - make their first shuffling appearance in wts literature!
as a long time reader of awake!
and an even longer fan of horror movies, i should know.
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Awake Zombies!
by Alucard inthe walking dead - and we don't mean the gb - make their first shuffling appearance in wts literature!
as a long time reader of awake!
and an even longer fan of horror movies, i should know.
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Alucard
The Walking Dead - and we don't mean the GB - make their first shuffling appearance in WTS literature! As a long time reader of Awake! and an even longer fan of horror movies, I should know. Check out the necrotic ghouls on the inside page of the September 2012 Awake!
OK, sure they clutter up the page with giant killer robots (Transformers? The Day The Earth Stood Still?) as well as what looks like Raelians being beamed up to their mother ships, but that's all phooey. The game changer in WTS artwork is, without a doubt, the three stumbling walking corpses that have become synonymous with apocalyptic blood-letting. The three figures depicted are straight out of post-Romero, flesh-eating, zombie cinematic fare.
So now we know how those art department Bethelites pass their time after a few beers in the evening. Correct me if I'm wrong but the recently re-animated dead have NEVER (OK, apart from bandaged Lazarus) made any appearance in WTS artwork. So I hope this is the first of many appreciative nods in the direction of modern splatter horror in the magazines and we will soon see the likes of Freddie Kruger, Leatherface, Jason Vorhees, Michael Myers and maybe even Jigsaw himself!
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Soul Sleep: Looking for JWs do participate in a discussion
by JonahPine ini am starting this thread in hopes of recruiting some knowledge folks here to join a debate on the subject of "soul sleep".
the discussion is here:.
http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?145-soul-sleep-in-the-new-testament-and-beyond.
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Alucard
Bump.
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Soul Sleep: Looking for JWs do participate in a discussion
by JonahPine ini am starting this thread in hopes of recruiting some knowledge folks here to join a debate on the subject of "soul sleep".
the discussion is here:.
http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?145-soul-sleep-in-the-new-testament-and-beyond.
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Alucard
Hi Leolaia. No I'm not from the thread in the OP. I have an interest in this subject and look forward to your next comments.
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Soul Sleep: Looking for JWs do participate in a discussion
by JonahPine ini am starting this thread in hopes of recruiting some knowledge folks here to join a debate on the subject of "soul sleep".
the discussion is here:.
http://www.christianwebsite.com/forum/showthread.php?145-soul-sleep-in-the-new-testament-and-beyond.
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Alucard
As ever, Leolaia's post on 'soul sleep' is fascinating and well-researched (I skulk in the shadows and read the forum sometimes), but I feel that certain ideas and facts need more development. So here is my small contribution, in the interest of balance.
Firstly, Leolaia is right to say that the WTS gives quite a narrow account of death in the OT, largely ignoring or masking over the varied accounts of death and the afterlife in the OT itself. Yet we must be careful over details, for, as we know, 'the devil is in the details'! "Mortalism" is not the concept that "the soul continues to exist after death" [Leolaia] - that is 'immortalism' or 'substance dualism', the traditional Christian view of post-mortem existence. 'Mortalism' (which has been around in its modern form at least since Tyndale) is akin to 'physicalism', 'monism' or so-called 'thnetopsychism' i.e. you are your body, and when it does, you die - period. As far back as Aubrey Johnson ( The Vitality of the Individual in the Thought of Ancient Israel, 1964) commentators have been comfortable with understanding OT death as "virtual extinction" (Johnson, 93). Steinhart has recently echoed this view:
"The Bible describes death literally as the extinction of the person (Job 14; Ecc 3:19-20, 9:10). Persons are made of dust and shall return to dust (Gen 2:7, Gen 3:19, Gen 18:27)." (Eric Steinhart, 'The revision theory of resurrection', Religious Studies, 44, 2008, 80)
In the last few decades, many critics and scholars have re-examined the traditional dualistic paradigm that has dominated western Christianity, only to find it wanting. See Joel Green [Body, Soul and Human Life 2008], Bruce Reichenbach [Is Man The Phoenix? 1982], Edward Fudge [The Fire that Consumes 2 nd ed. 2011], David Powys [Hell: A Hard Look at a Hard Question 1998], Karel Hanhart [The Intermediate State in the NT 1966], Tom Wright [Surprised by Hope 2007], among others such as Alan Richardson who outspokenly wrote: "In the biblical view a man dies and literally ceases to exist" (A Dictionary of Christian Theology, 1969). Representative of this newer generation of interpreters is Richard Middleton who questions the received notion of 'heavenly life after death' in the classical Christian sense:
"Since the mid-seventies, I have been asking my students (in adult Sunday School classes, in campus ministry groups, in undergraduate courses) to find even one passage in the Bible that actually says that Christians will live in heaven forever (or that heaven is the eternal destiny of the righteous). After a lot of searching, they admit - incredulously - that they can't find any." (J. Richard Middleton, 'A New Heaven and a New Earth: The Case for a Holistic Reading of the Biblical Story of Redemption', Journal for Christian Theological Research, 11, 2006, 86)
Other writers also promote this line in essays that may only reach a limited audience, such as the little-known work of Jesuit Stanley Marrow:
"The 'I' does not have a body, a soul or a spirit, but rather it is a body, a soul and a spirit. We must, therefore, keep in mind that, in the NT, when the 'I' dies, then all of me dies: my body, my soul and my spirit. In death none of me and nothing of me survives ...The 'I', both as subject and object of relationships, ceases to be." (Stanley Marrow, 'ATHANASIA/ANASTASIS: The Road Not Taken', New Testament Studies, 45, 1999, 573, 575)
Leolaia suggests that "Paul...also expected to go to heaven immediately after death", citing the well-known passages of 2 Cor 5 and Phil 1:23. Yet this is undermined by scholarship that proposes the complete opposite. Jerry Sumney looks at all the significant Pauline texts and states:
"Paul thinks most people (including believers) cease to exist at death... Paul does not seem to envision any sort of conscious or even unconscious intermediate state for most people who have died. They simply await the parousia to receive life." (Jerry Sumney, 'Post-Mortem Existence and Resurrection of the Body in Paul', Horizons in Biblical Theology, 31, 2009, 12)
Much can be said on Phil 1:23. but signficantly a recent French-language study argues that the Greek syn Christo (with Christ) in no sense implies being 'in the literal presence of Christ' after death, but rather that Paul's imminent demise would link him inextricably with Christ's death and destiny, in the sequence: martyr's death, resurrection, then glorification (see Enrique Treiyer, 'S'en aller et être avec Christ: Philippiens 1:23', Andrews University Seminary Studies, 34, 1996, 47-64). Other writers have expressed similar interpretations, such as D. Palmer ('To Die is Gain' Novum Testamentum, 17, 1975) and C. De Vogel ('Reflexions on Ph. 1:23-24', Novum Testamentum, 19, 1977), as well as Tony Wright who claims:
"However, by itself, Philippians 1:23 does not support any one view of the intermediate state, for it speaks only of Paul's desire to be 'with Christ'. The 'when and where' of this being with Christ is not stated." (Tony Wright, 'Death, the Dead and the Underworld in Biblical Theology - Part 2', Churchman 122, 2008, 116).
Not to be forgotten is the consistent Pauline view that Christians await the parousia and future resurrection, not an early 'heavenly' encounter following death. Any perceived 'immediacy' in Phil 1:23 should hence be understood as the experienced immediacy of the resurrection-event from the viewpoint of the deceased believer: the being 'with Christ' would thus be the next waking moment for that believer who would have experienced no long intervening passage of time. Murray Harris concedes that this lack of temporal delay could fit the implied immediacy of Phil 1:23 (From Grace to Glory: Resurrection in the NT, 1990, 209), as does F. F.Bruce ("in the consciousness of the departed believer there is no interval between dissolution and investiture" (Paul: Apostle of the Heart Set Free 1977, 312).
While we are talking about Paul, Richard Hays sounds a note of caution:
"Many devout Christians expect their souls to 'go to heaven' when they die without realizing how little the Bible says about any such ideas... Notice that Paul does not say to the grieving Thessalonians, 'Your loved ones are already in heaven with Jesus.' Instead, he holds out the promise of the resurrection of the body." (Richard Hays, 'The Resurrection of the Body' in Exploring and Proclaiming the Apostles' Creed, ed. van Harn, 2004, 262, 265)
Hays goes on to criticize traditional body/soul duality with the suggestion that "this kind of individualistic, dualistic piety is closer to ancient Gnosticism than to historic orthodox Christianity" (ibid. 266).
Brian Edgar equally finds fault with a dualist exegesis of scriptural data:
"On the basis of an eschatology which involves the intermediate state, death is not seen as the radical event which it is presented as in scripture. Instead it becomes a transition from one form of existence to the next. Death is seen simply as the separation of body and soul involving the dissolution or death of the body, but not of the soul which moves to a new phase of existence. No soul ever actually dies, and as the soul is the real person, therefore at death no person ever actually dies." (Brian Edgar, 'Biblical Anthropology and the Intermediate State: Part 1', Evangelical Quarterly, 74, 2002, 118)
Additionally, writers such as Trenton Merricks confirm that such dualism has been a misleading diversion in Christian doctrine:
"The dualist does not believe that dead people are raised to life; rather, she believes that dead bodies are raised to be reunited with already living people (who are, in the intermediate state at least, souls)... It is not clear that the dualist can agree that death is bad. When the Christian dies, according to the dualist, he or she goes immediately to a much better place." (Trenton Merricks, 'The Resurrection of the Body and the Life Everlasting' in Reason for the Hope Within, ed. Harris, 1999, 283, 284)
Eric Steinhart astutely points out that "A theory that says your soul is disembodied at death and then reembodied later is a reincarnation theory rather than a resurrection theory" (Steinhart, 'Science and the General Resurrection' online essay at www.ericsteinhart.com). This is a conundrum that dualists tend to pass over lightly, but it is a significant issue , as Howsepian acknowledges:
"The Cartesian or Christian Platonist may reply that to die is to shed one's body, and to be resurrected is to be reembodied. But surely 'to shed one's body' does not constitute the death of the person on this view. The person lives on in an uninterrupted fashion, before, during and after he or she dies. What sort of death is that? It seems like nothing deserving of the title 'death' at all. What dies in Cartesianism is not the person, but the person's body. So what is resurrected is not the person, but the person's body. Is this the Christian hope? Do we look forward to the resurrection of dead bodies or to the bodily resurrection of the dead?" ( A.A. Howsepian, 'Sowing the Seeds of Christian Anthropology: Contributions from Scripture, Philosophy and Neuroscience', Ex Auditu, 13, 1997, 50)
Leolaia mentions various other scripture texts that seem to lend support to putative post-mortem existence, such as 1 Samuel 28 (the witch of Endor), Luke 16 (the rich man and Lazarus) and Rev 6 (souls under the heavenly altar). I will deal briefly with these in turn:
In 1 Sam 28, only the medium sees Samuel, Saul does not. In fact, we do not even know what the medium sees, as she only mentions an old man and a cloak or robe - apparel that was certainly not unique to Samuel! Uncharacteristically, this alleged Samuel uses a harsh and intimidating tone against Saul, whereas the biblical Samuel was respectful towards and arguably fond of Saul (1 Sam 15:53). The language used in the verses says that the medium 'brought up' Samuel, as if from Sheol, yet dualists would have to concede that no travel or interaction is possible between Sheol (or Hades) and our world, according to Luke 16:26. Leolaia mentions the verse at 1 Chronicles 10:13, but this actually confirms that Saul did not seek God's counsel but that of a 'ghost' (NEB) or 'spirit of the dead' (TEV). As she points out in her post, the word in 1 Sam 28 is ob which can mean 'ghost' or 'sentient being' according to OT expert Philip Johnston (Shades of Sheol: Death and the Afterlife in the OT, 2002, 151). But this is still not the same as positing a human living on in the afterlife; in fact it more plausibly suggests a spirit being like a demon. It is not just the WTS that takes this view, as it is an interpretation going back to Luther, Calvin and even Augustine.
Johnston comments on the fact that the medium calls the spirit elohim:"For the medium at least, elohim refers to the spirit of a dead human being i.e. the dead could be divinized." (Johnston, ibid 145) But while this may have been the pagan medium's understanding, it is far from that of the OT Bible. Keil and Delitzsch say of this verse that elohim signifies "a celestial (super-terrestrial) heavenly, or spiritual being" (Biblical Commentary on the Books of Samuel, 1866, 263). Leolaia refers to Num 25:2 in the same vein, but the cluster of meaning surrounding elohim is more suggestive of supernatural or preternatural beings such as wicked spirits or demons than of deceased humans, who have no real afterlife in the OT worth being called 'life', even taking into account any poetic or suggestive language around the rephaim. As Stephen Perks observes:
"The Bible does not say that the shade or spirit or soul of Samuel appeared to Saul. It may be that Saul expected such a thing. Doubtless the witch did not." (Stephen Perks, 'The Resurrection of the Body and the Life Everlasting', Christianity and Society, 9, no. 2, April 1999, 2).
On this train of thought, Tony Wright comments:
"Thus even to say that 'the dead live on', is an overstatement of the quality and nature of their existence. What is on view is not the life after death but rather the death after life...The dead are 'shades', who lack a body, are inactive and silent, and as such their minimalistic existence is best likened to a coma. All of the dead lead this comatose existence in the dark silence of the underworld." (Wright, ibid.14, 19)
On Luke 16, Leolaia states that "Luke specifically criticizes in a parable the Sadducee belief", whereas David Powys argues convincingly that the parable is more likely aimed at the Pharisees, in order "to shatter the Pharisees' misplaced expectation of reward-based salvation" (Powys ibid 219). If this is the case, the whole parable is a polemic aimed at correcting Pharisaic falsehood, not about universal post-mortem destiny, just as Powys concludes: "The story has no bearing on the question of the fate of the unrighteous" (ibid 227). Tony Wright concurs:
"In this parable, Jesus no more provides information about the intermediate state than, in other parables, does he provide instruction on correct agricultural practices (Luke 15;4-6) or investing tips (Luke 16:1-13)." (Wright, ibid 114)
Revelation 6 does indeed speak of "souls of those who had been slain", implying post-mortem existence of Christians in heaven; yet here too there is more room for doubt than is usually allowed. Even doyen of dualism John Cooper admits that this text is to be treated with some suspicion:
"This is a difficult text and cannot bear much weight in the monism-dualism debate. Perhaps if we are reluctant to view Armageddon literalistically as a military conflict in the Middle East, we ought to be equally cautious about the souls under the altar." (John Cooper, Body, Soul and Life Everlasting 1989, 128).
To which Perks adds the key link between 'soul' and 'lifeblood' from Gen 4:10, Lev 17:11 and Deut 12:23:
"It seems, therefore, that the word 'souls' (psychas) in Rev 6:9 refers to the shed blood of the martyrs...The imagery of Rev 6:9 , therefore, i.e. the image of the souls of the martyrs under the altar in heaven crying out to God for justice, is the same kind of metaphor that is used in Gen 4:10 with reference to the murder of Abel, although the imagery is more fanciful, occurring as it does in a book that makes extensive use of a highly apocalyptic form of language." (Stephen Perks, 'Is There an Afterlife? The Intermediate State Reconsidered', Christianity and Society, 9 no. 3, July 1999, 4, 5)
Finally, it is instructive to read why and how the ideas of dualism and the deathless soul took such a hold on Christian thought and doctrine. Alan Segal nails down the key background event that made this possible - the delay of the parousia:
"As Christianity came to terms with the continued existence of the world, it incorporated two conceptions that were quite foreign to its original formulation - the immortality of the soul and an interim state in which the soul exists until the Savior arrives to judge the world...With no quickly arriving apocalypse, there would be no reason to convert to Christianity except to avoid more and more horrendous punishments for sinning. Hell was a convenient stick with which to whip the sinner and a great cautionary tale to encourage the faithful... But once the soul was immortal and all souls survived forever, then punishment had to be eternal as well, otherwise sinners would appear to get away with their dastardly deeds." (Alan Segal, Life After Death: A History of the Afterlife in the Religions of the West, 2004, 486, 489)
He concludes that as the expected parousia delayed ever further, "the intermediate state in heaven became more and more important" (ibid 490).
There really is more room for ambiguity in most of the traditional proof-texts for dualism and the immortal soul than is commonly granted. I hope to have shown that it is not just a black-and-white issue (which Bible topic truly is?) but that there are powerful arguments for monism that need to be weighed against the claimed truths of dualism. In answer to Job's question "If a man dies, can he live again?" (Job 14:14), we can take comfort in Paul's definitive answer about his faith in "the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were." (Rom 4:17 NIV)
