Posts by shepherdless

19

Is ignorance an excuse?

by stuckinarut2 in

i have always maintained that i hold nothing personally against individual witnesses, even those that have actively slandered our name and reputation based on the actions of some individuals.. i have often said that all these ones, (even the ones spreading gossip), are victims of the culture of the organization, and the directions of the gb.. but recently i have been rethinking this, and wonder if ignorance is really an acceptable excuse?.

i mean, with so much information now readily available about the society, its origins, its scandals, issues and conduct, is it simply ok for a witness to remain wilfully ignorant about the organization that dictates every aspect of their lives?.

is ignorance an excuse?.

shepherdless

Ignorance may not quite be the right word. It seems to be more a mental refusal to deal with something unpleasant.

Someone I know used to be fond of saying that most of the world's problems are caused by weak people, not evil people. (Weak in this context meaning lack of strength of character, compromising principles, hedonistic, unwilling to stand up to bullies, etc.)

I think that this religion would have died out long ago, if people within it and outside it had the courage and conviction to call it for what it is, more often.

So in my opinion, "ignorance" is not an excuse. Worse, it is a fundamental part of the cause.

11

Scriptures that now have such a different meaning?!

by stuckinarut2 in

it struck me that so many of the scriptures that the society uses to condemn others, can actually apply to them!.

when we read them without the application that the society enforces, they can make you have that "ah-ha!

" moment.... for instance, how about:.

shepherdless

2 Corinthians 2:7:

"for we are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are"

(a footnote states that "not peddlers" means not commercializing, or not making profit from)

For most of Watchtower history, it was the quintessential "peddler for profit" of the word of God.

9

Christianity (Including JWs) Debunked

by HowTheBibleWasCreated in

1 cor.

15: 21,22 rnwt: for since death came through a man,+ resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.+ 22 for just as in adam all are dying,+ so also in the christ all will be made alive.. .

so according to the nt jesus makes alive those that die in adam.. given the overwhelming evidence that adam as a man did not exist jws lose the battle on this verse.. however foolish christians like pentecostals and catholics like to call adam figurative.. okay... read it again^^^^^^... .

shepherdless

Good thinking. However, I don't think your point would bother too many other Christians, such as Catholics.

I was brought up a Catholic (never a JW). Most Catholics know there are numerous inconsistencies in the bible, but it does not cause a major issue. Not only do they not believe in a literal Adam, they have the view that if you try to read the bible literally as a book of history (or a book of science) you are reading it the wrong way.

If I wanted to "stumble" a Catholic, I would focus on the resurrection. If Jesus was resurrected, he could have walked the streets of Jerusalem, yelling "Ha Ha, you can't kill me!". Instead, all we have is a few partially conflicting accounts of people claiming to see Jesus resurrected, a couple of whom didn't even recognise him until after he left. (This is the issue that bothered me most, as a teenager.) Even if the biblical resurrection accounts are broadly true, they are second hand accounts with about as much credibility as Elvis sightings. And without the resurrection, there is no Christianity.

24

Crop circles

by Chook in

what causes them ?.

shepherdless

I vaguely remember when crop circles first appeared and made news, there were journalists saying they couldn't possibly be done by people. Then a year or so later, I saw a news item or documentary where some people revealed that they were doing it, and gave a demonstration of the boards and surveying technique used.

It should have all died down there, but I guess it is much more fun to believe aliens were involved, than a few geezers from the local pub.

I suppose there is a parallel to the early days of Watchtower. It was probably more fun to believe Russell's amateurish numerology and pyramidology (complete with obvious mistakes such as the date for the fall of Jerusalem, no zero AD etc) than see him as some guy making money selling a book series.

221

Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

by Simon in

judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

shepherdless

I went onto the court website myself, and it does appear Watchtower did not submit a brief. I can't confirm the other info Richard Oliver states without paying a small amount of money. (Or perhaps there is another way, but the website is unwieldy.)

Another possible reason Watchtower may not have submitted a brief is that there has been a settlement in the last week or so, pending payment of an amount. What may happen is that the parties settle, but the Court isn't notified until the amount of the settlement is paid across.

221

Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

by Simon in

judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

shepherdless

I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, Fisherman. We are saying the same thing.

221

Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents

by Simon in

judge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.

imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.

by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.

shepherdless

Fisherman, the "brief" would be the written legal argument by WTBTS why the original Court decision on document disclosure is wrong.

I haven't been following this case closely, but I find it very strange that WTBTS hasn't filed a brief. From memory there could be a lot of money at stake in this case because there were a large number of victims in the relevant congregation. If WTBTS doesn't file a brief, WTBTS would have no argument to not pay the accumulating $4000 per day. Perhaps WTBTS is trying to string it out as long as possible, and hope to settle.

25

It's right there in our faces, how could we NOT see it?

by NikL in

i know there have been many many posts on here over the years on the deity of jesus.. i am submitting this one because i am feeling a little confused.. the thing is, i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and i know this.

so when i am going through my bible reading (to all you haters, yes i still do it) i see so many scriptures that just fly in the face of everything the jws teach about jesus.. i begin to wonder if indeed i am diseased in the mind ,as they will try to paint me, because it seems so plain to me.. i never even gave it a though growing up as to if jesus and god were equal.

i just didn't.. now when i read scriptures like philippians 9.... 9 for this very reason, god exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that jesus christ is lord+ to the glory of god the father.. .

shepherdless

Thanks sbf

I think Acts 2:22 should be read in the context of Peter giving a speech evangelizing to Jews. He doesn't start off by saying Jesus was more than a man, but by the end of the speech (Acts 2:34-36) he definitely is. Also, John 13:16 means something different to me in context.

I have some further counterarguments, but I can at least see the argument, now.

(I am still an atheist; just trying to understand the logic.)

35

February 26, 2017 TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS Re: Witnessing in Public Places

by wifibandit in

february 26, 2017 to all bodies of elders re: witnessing in public places.

and.

february 25, 2017 to all congregations re: magnetic boards and posters for public witnessing.

shepherdless

Further to Outlaw's point, the Witnessing in Public Places letter says:

Any application to use a mobile cart or to set up a table or kiosk to display literature must be filled out in the name of an individual publisher, not in the name of the congregation, any corporation used by the organization, or “Jehovah’s Witnesses.” If a small administrative fee is needed in order to acquire space in a public area, it is to be paid by the individual publisher, not the congregation. Publishers should carefully review any such applications to see what responsibility they are taking upon themselves with respect to liability and possible proof of insurance coverage. Publishers who apply to distribute literature at these areas are doing so on their own initiative as part of their personal ministry.

The bolding is mine, to emphasis that WTBTS is putting all legal liability on the individual.
However, the letter goes on:

After consulting with the other elders, the Congregation Service Committee will make the final decision as to specific locations for public witnessing.
...
Locations selected for public witnessing must be within the congregation’s territory boundaries.
...
The service overseer or someone else designated by the body of elders should determine what may be legally required, if anything, in the way of permissions, permits, and insurance coverage.
...
The Congregation Service Committee will determine what equipment (including posters) will be used and where it will be stored. Only artwork approved by the branch office should be displayed.
...
The [public witnessing] equipment will remain the property of the congregation. Care should be taken to request only equipment that will be put to good use by publishers who have been trained in its use and that can be financially supported by the congregation. The congregation may be informed that the cost of the public witnessing equipment will be covered by their contributions to the worldwide work.

...
Determining Who May Participate: The Congregation Service Committee will select qualified publishers to participate in this feature of the ministry. Those selected should be... [blah blah blah]
...
If it is possible and practical, the service overseer or someone designated by the body of elders should organize a midweek and weekend schedule for each selected location.
...
It is usually best for two or more persons to be assigned to work together.

There is more. I can't be bothered cutting and pasting it. Surely, given the very prescriptive requirements and the fact that individual JW's use Watchtower logos and intellectual property, this letter is evidence that WTBTS is in complete control. The legal ramifications could be interesting.

25

It's right there in our faces, how could we NOT see it?

by NikL in

i know there have been many many posts on here over the years on the deity of jesus.. i am submitting this one because i am feeling a little confused.. the thing is, i am not the sharpest knife in the drawer and i know this.

so when i am going through my bible reading (to all you haters, yes i still do it) i see so many scriptures that just fly in the face of everything the jws teach about jesus.. i begin to wonder if indeed i am diseased in the mind ,as they will try to paint me, because it seems so plain to me.. i never even gave it a though growing up as to if jesus and god were equal.

i just didn't.. now when i read scriptures like philippians 9.... 9 for this very reason, god exalted him to a superior position+ and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name,+ 10 so that in the name of jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground+— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that jesus christ is lord+ to the glory of god the father.. .

shepherdless

Thanks NikL for raising this.

As someone who has never been a JW, this is something that has always bothered me as well. I can't see how anyone reading the bible on its own could come to the conclusion that Jesus is merely an agent or representative of Jehovah. Yet JW's seem so certain and confident on the issue.