shepherdless

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Posts by shepherdless

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  45

  put youir thinking caps on.

  by zeb in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this was sent to me from doug shields blog.

  for those who like stats and numbers may find this of interest.. 1914 – recognizing the ”the elephant in the room”.

  the problem with the date ”1914 ad” lays with the two calendars that are involved – jewish and gregorian.

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  shepherdless

  Just for lurkers, I better add that Jerusalem fell in the 19th year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar (see 2 Kings 25:8). That means that the bible tells us that Jerusalem fell in 586 or 587 BC (depending on an interpretation issue).

  i know most of you know that already, but I thought I would spell it out. Watchtower tries to argue that they don't care that secular history says Jerusalem fell in 587 BC because the bible says different. They are wrong; the bible agrees with secular history and nobody agrees with Watchtower.
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  45

  put youir thinking caps on.

  by zeb in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this was sent to me from doug shields blog.

  for those who like stats and numbers may find this of interest.. 1914 – recognizing the ”the elephant in the room”.

  the problem with the date ”1914 ad” lays with the two calendars that are involved – jewish and gregorian.

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  shepherdless

  Yes, Fisherman, 539 BC as the fall of Babylon is a historical date, that can be demonstrated in multiple independent ways.

  Even Bishop Ushher, writing in 1658 was close. (He thought it was 538 BC, probably because of the way Ptolomy's Canon works, but that is a discussion for another day.) Bishop Ushher was also puzzled why there was only a gap of 66 (or in his view 67) years between Nebuchadnezzar coming to the throne in 605 BC and the fall of Babylon. He describes it as "almost 70 years".

  There is another way to look at it, in my view, and I mentioned this on another thread. You can easily interpret the passages of Jeremiah as the 70 years starting before Nebuchadnezzar became king. He was clearly in charge of the army and waging war (including winning the battle of Carchemish) before his father died. If you think that that is inconsistent with Jeremiah 25:9, because it refers to "King Nebuchadnezzar", and so he must already be king, then check Jeremiah 27:1-6, where he is also referred to as "King Nebuchadnezzar" at a period of time that clearly preceded him being king.
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  60

  Stephanie Fessler v Watch Tower - Trial on Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2017 in Pennsylvania

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  http://avoidjw.org/2017/02/stephanie-fessler-v-watch-tower/.

  stephanie fessler v watch tower.

  stephanie fessler was brought up as a jehovah’s witness by her parents, jodee and kevin.

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  shepherdless

  In camera hearings can be for a variety of reasons. Hearings in relation to whether a party can access information (including discovery) are usually heard pre-trial, and are not normally "in-camera", so this is not the likely explanation, here.

  Sometimes the public might be excluded from a hearing, for a variety of reasons, but this is unusual. It is also possible the plaintiff has been advised not to discuss the matter in public.

  The most likely explanation, however, is that settlement negotiations of some sort are taking place, or have taken place. If so, we may never hear what the outcome was.
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  21

  How much money people usually donate to WT ?

  by Bardamu in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i grew up in the org and never got baptised, however i was wondering recently about how much money my family and old friends are wasting in all that.

  .

  i remember of course never talking in amounts, that it was important to give from what you can not what you have etc but i admit i have no clue how much the average witness gives (say in % of their income).. i'm sure it varies greatly, i'd love to hear what you guys have to say..

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  shepherdless

  According to 2015 accounts, Watchtower BTS of Britain and IBSA (UK) received £41.2 million and £14.5 million respectively, totalling £65.7 million. That does not include legacies, "grants" or donations of literature.

  Given Britain has 138,000 publishers, that works out at £476 per publisher p.a., or about £40 per publisher per month.

  I have not seen figures from any other countries.
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  11

  Which Religions Forbid Outside Research?

  by AnonVet in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  my definition of a cult is just this:if you are not allowed to research outside of your religion's published sources, you are in a cult.what other religions (cults) are there that absolutely forbid outside research on threat of punishment / shunning?

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  shepherdless

  I seem to come across the Exclusive Brethren a bit. I gather they have some pretty fierce shunning rules, and members are not allowed to access the internet at all. It seems like Watchtower on steroids.

  I haven't heard the Amish described as a cult, but surely they are, as well.
• 
  60

  Stephanie Fessler v Watch Tower - Trial on Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2017 in Pennsylvania

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  http://avoidjw.org/2017/02/stephanie-fessler-v-watch-tower/.

  stephanie fessler v watch tower.

  stephanie fessler was brought up as a jehovah’s witness by her parents, jodee and kevin.

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  shepherdless

  Thank you Richard for pulling out those cases. Since I asked for them, I guess I owe you a response. I can only find:

  Berry v Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and

  John Doe v Roman Catholic Diocese of Galveston-Houston.

  I can't find the other 3 you mentioned.

  The John Doe case is irrelevant. John Doe brought a case 20 years beyond the statute of limitations, and the decision was in relation to whether there was an exception to allow him to make the claim.

  Berry v Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is much more interesting (also upsetting if read in detail). In that case, the abuser was the step father. He abused his daughters for about 6 years. The mother reported it to the Elders of the congregation during counselling between the mother and step-father for domestic violence. She did not report the matter to the Police or give Elders permission to report the matter to the Police. It appears that the elders suggested she not do so.
  
  At trial and on appeal, all judges agreed that breach of statute (not reporting the matter to Police) did not itself give rise to a cause of action. However, the appeal court was split on the issue of whether Watchtower breached a common law duty.The majority dismissed the common law claim, in part, stating:
  

  There is no allegation that the elders created any opportunity for Berry to abuse his daughters.   As noted, there was no allegation that the alleged abuse took place on congregation property or at congregation-related activities.   There is no allegation that the elders acted in any way other than by providing spiritual guidance and scriptural advice, at the request of the plaintiffs' mother.

  One obvious difference between the Berry case and the above matter relates to the part I put in bold in the above quote.

  Further, the Berry case confirms (if there was ever any doubt), that whilst a failure to report may not, of itself, be actionable, it can be evidence of a common law breach of duty of care.

  I also note that Watchtower tried to argue clergy privilege, but that issue was not decided. The dissenting decision was strongly worded; the judge was almost scathing of his/her co-judges.

  I guess I have to agree that this case may well go to appeal, and the outcome is far from certain.

  
  

  
  
  
• 
  60

  Stephanie Fessler v Watch Tower - Trial on Tuesday, Feb. 7, 2017 in Pennsylvania

  by AndersonsInfo in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  http://avoidjw.org/2017/02/stephanie-fessler-v-watch-tower/.

  stephanie fessler v watch tower.

  stephanie fessler was brought up as a jehovah’s witness by her parents, jodee and kevin.

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  shepherdless

  RO: Apparently, PA allows for a civil claim to be brought when a criminal statute is believed to be broken. Not many states allow this.

  What makes you say that? I don't know anything about this case, apart from what I read here, but it appears to be a claim based on common law negligence, with the statute breach constituting evidence that the Borg didn't follow its own procedures, and hence there was a breach of a duty of care.

  RO: Many civil cases have been dismissed in other states because normally there is no private cause of action that is allowed if a criminal statute or a family law regulation.

  Leaving aside that that is not what is going on, here, can you give a couple of case examples (referenced to facts in the case)?
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  32

  Genesis Lifetimes and Numerology

  by schnell in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  out of morbid curiosity, i would like to here reduce the digits of the lifetimes stated in genesis chapter 5. it is clear that no human being has ever lived that long, and perhaps there is some numerological meaning to these numbers rather than literal history.

  7 after he became the father of enosh, seth lived 807 years and had other sons and daughters.

  10 after he became the father of kenan, enosh lived 815 years and had other sons and daughters.

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  shepherdless

  These numbers add up to 37, 37 reduces to 10. Completion.

  And if you multiply 10 by my next door neighbour's post box number, you get 2030. Armageddon in 2030, everyone!!!

  By the way, that sort of numerology only works using Arabic numerals. For example, get completely different results using, say Roman numerals. (Eg 24 would "reduce" to 26, instead of 6, etc)

  Anyway, I suppose numerology is a lot of fun, until someone is silly enough to take it too seriously.
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  78

  The handling of child abuse allegations

  by Landy in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  there's a lot of criticism surrounding the jw's handling of chiild abuse within their ranks with a lot of it being well deserved.

  but i'm interested to know how people on here think child abuse allegations should be handled.

  there's a few scenarios below, the first couple are easy then it gets a bit more complex.

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  shepherdless

  Thanks Shepherless for trying to give solutions to the scenarios instead of just spouting rhetoric.
  I can't think of anywhere in the UK that does have mandatory reporting, and the police simply won't be interested if the victim is not wanting to press charges.
  As above it's not practical to CRB 8 million JWs and it's difficult to say when one member may be alone with a child, especially as abuser will create the situation so that they can be. So what do you do to safeguard other kids in the congregation?

  I am trying to be objective, Landy. I am no fan of you.

  Comments in response:

  1. I didn't follow ARC in detail, but I think there was mandatory reporting in 3 states. Watchtower still did not report, for some reason. Perhaps someone else here knows better.

  2. "Police simply wont be interested": the Police make a note on the record of any complaint, even if they fail to pursue the matter. And that is really important in the fight against pedophiles.

  3. Nobody suggests CRB'ing 8 million JW's. Only those who are granted unaccompanied access to children.

  4. I am not someone who thinks that Watchtower is at fault every time a JW pedophile commits a crime. However, Watchtower theology creates an environment virtually unique in Christendom for pedophiles. Potential pedophiles are probable less than 1% of the population, according to a report I hear on the radio a few years ago. Yet they seek out environments that allow them to predate. Naive "bow to elders" JW's and the 2 witness rule are probably nirvana for such types.

  Shepherdless
  You mentioned, Make it clear to the congregation that only those with the relevant clearance are allowed unaccompanied with children.
  I wanted to know the impact of the clearance. I can understand the clearances for kindergartens and schools.
  As a rough statistics that I read, 89% of child abuse cases are by someone the child knows (39% parents & 50% relatives/church members). How can clearances be provided to known relatives and family members? Is having an appropriate clearance a surety that that person won’t indulge in child abuse?
  Regarding reporting to the police, I know of a case where Elders reported the abuse case to the police against the parent’s wishes. However due to rampant corruption in the legal system here, the case became messier day by day eventually causing much financial and emotional distress to the victim and her family. To this day, the family and many congregation members accuse the elders for not investigating and solving the case themselves and pushing their job to the Police.

  I have been to your country. We live in very different countries. I think your country is fantastic in many ways. However, we have much more faith in our Police in our country than it seems in yours. Also, in my country, the process for getting approval to be unaccompanied with children is so strict, child care centers have trouble getting staff.

  That does not satisfactorily answer your question. My (quite devout) JW wife is pragmatic enough to know that no adult whatsoever is left alone with any of our kids. (Thankfully, she thinks the elders are well-meaning idiots; she is brighter than most of them.) I think the biggest and most dangerous (but far from only) problem with Watchtower is the concept that elders are somehow magic and beyond reproach. They are human, and evil ones may be lurking amongst them.
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  78

  The handling of child abuse allegations

  by Landy in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  there's a lot of criticism surrounding the jw's handling of chiild abuse within their ranks with a lot of it being well deserved.

  but i'm interested to know how people on here think child abuse allegations should be handled.

  there's a few scenarios below, the first couple are easy then it gets a bit more complex.

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  shepherdless

  I am no expert, but this is what I would have thought:

  Scenario 1:

  Recommend that the parents report the matter to the Police. If in a mandatory reporting jurisdiction, the elders should separately report it directly to the Police as well.

  Separately, the elders should make sure that anyone who is placed in care of kids has the appropriate clearance required in that jurisdiction, including the appropriate no objection from the Police or appropriate authority, just like they do in schools and kindergartens.

  Make it clear to the congregation that only those with the relevant clearance are allowed unaccompanied with children.

  Scenario 2:

  Recommend that the parents report the matter to the Police. If in a mandatory reporting jurisdiction, the elders should separately report it directly to the Police as well. Point out that elders (a)do not have the training to handle the matter, (b) any investigation by the elders may be very stressful to the child, and (c) any investigation by the elders may corrupt the evidence and undermine the ability of the Police to prosecute the matter at a later stage.

  Separately, the elders should make sure that anyone who is placed in care of kids has the appropriate clearance required in that jurisdiction, including the appropriate no objection from the Police or appropriate authority, just like they do in schools and kindergartens.

  Make it clear to the congregation that only those with the relevant clearance are allowed unaccompanied with children.

  Scenario 3:

  Recommend to the 40 y.o. that only the Police can handle the matter. The elders can't. If in a mandatory reporting jurisdiction, it is possible that the elders have an obligation to report it directly to the Police as well.

  Separately, the elders should make sure that anyone who is placed in care of kids has the appropriate clearance required in that jurisdiction, including the appropriate no objection from the Police or appropriate authority, just like they do in schools and kindergartens.

  Make it clear to the congregation that only those with the relevant clearance are allowed unaccompanied with children.

  Scenario 4

  Recommend to the 40 y.o. that only the Police can handle the matter. If in a mandatory reporting jurisdiction, it is possible that the elders have an obligation to report it directly to the Police as well.

  Separately, the elders should make sure that anyone who is placed in care of kids has the appropriate clearance required in that jurisdiction, including the appropriate no objection from the Police or appropriate authority, just like they do in schools and kindergartens.

  Make it clear to the congregation that only those with the relevant clearance are allowed unaccompanied with children.

  Scenario 5

  If in a mandatory reporting jurisdiction, it is possible that the elders have an obligation to report it directly to the Police.

  Separately, the elders should make sure that anyone who is placed in care of kids has the appropriate clearance required in that jurisdiction, including the appropriate no objection from the Police or appropriate authority, just like they do in schools and kindergartens.

  Make it clear to the congregation that only those with the relevant clearance are allowed unaccompanied with children.