I should add that even though my posts concentrate on the academic issues, I broadly agree with Tor that this is not what drives most dubs to stay or leave.
shepherdless
JoinedPosts by shepherdless
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21
TIL - 537 BC is in the Bible - and more
by berrygerry infrom an apologist site:.
http://thirdwitness.com/607_bce/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/realissue.html.
hence, counting back from 537 bce (the year the bible says the jews returned home) for a full seventy years, we arrive at the year 607 bce.. .
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TIL - 537 BC is in the Bible - and more
by berrygerry infrom an apologist site:.
http://thirdwitness.com/607_bce/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/realissue.html.
hence, counting back from 537 bce (the year the bible says the jews returned home) for a full seventy years, we arrive at the year 607 bce.. .
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shepherdless
As I understand it, the end of the last remnant of the Assyrian empire was in 609 BC, which seems to fit fit very nicely with 539 BC as the end of the Babylonian empire. Is that correct?
The collapse of the Assyrian empire certainly had a major role in the rise of Babylon as a regional superpower. However, if you are looking for a period to match the biblical 70 years, that is not a likely choice, because the beginning of the 70 years is bionically linked to Nebuchadnezzar. As I see it, there are 2 main alternatives for reconciling the biblical 70 year period with secular history:
(a) the 70 years is actually 68 years, beginning with Nebuchadnezzar commencing his domination of the region - a mainstream view held by religious scholars, at least back as far as Bishop James Ussher, writing in the 17th century; or
(b) the explanation given by Doug Mason, above.
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TIL - 537 BC is in the Bible - and more
by berrygerry infrom an apologist site:.
http://thirdwitness.com/607_bce/www.jehovahsjudgment.co.uk/607/realissue.html.
hence, counting back from 537 bce (the year the bible says the jews returned home) for a full seventy years, we arrive at the year 607 bce.. .
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shepherdless
Just to reinforce the point others above have made about this apologist piece. I went through the lot, trying to find on what basis the author supports the dates of 539 BC and 537 BC. The only thing I could find, was the following, on about page 12:
Of course, there is abundant secular evidence to show that 539 BCE is the date of Babylon’s defeat, and most importantly, such evidence is accepted by us because it does not contradict the scriptures.
So the whole piece rests on that. Accept the secular 539 BC datum and reject the secular 587 BC datum. No explanation as to how one can be accepted and the other rejected.
On another thread, I reported that I went back through the old literature for where 537 BC came from. The history is lengthy. I will try to very briefly summarise.
Russell assumed the dates of 536 BC and 606 BC. Back then, historians had already known for centuries (from Ptolemy's canon) that the date Cyrus conquered Babylon in around 538 or 539 BC (and that Jerusalem fell in about 587 BC), but the date of 536 BC had a special numerical allure for the Millerites. Millerites assumed Ptolomy's calendar was out by 2 years, not understanding that that was impossible, because the timing of the eclipses in Ptolomy's canon could not be out that far. Russell just copied the 536 date as fact, from around the 1890's onwards, without checking.
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My Old Kingdom Hall being merged with TWO other congregations!
by pale.emperor inthis can only be a good sign.. my old congregation in liverpool has had a lot of money in it's bank account for years.
for a long, long time (almost 8 years) they've been looking for land to build a new hall.
the one they're in now is literally falling to bits.
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shepherdless
Wow!
Of course it is not just the £200k gone, it is the proceeds of the sale of 2 more Kingdom Halls, as well. Where is all the money going?
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Is ignorance an excuse?
by stuckinarut2 ini have always maintained that i hold nothing personally against individual witnesses, even those that have actively slandered our name and reputation based on the actions of some individuals.. i have often said that all these ones, (even the ones spreading gossip), are victims of the culture of the organization, and the directions of the gb.. but recently i have been rethinking this, and wonder if ignorance is really an acceptable excuse?.
i mean, with so much information now readily available about the society, its origins, its scandals, issues and conduct, is it simply ok for a witness to remain wilfully ignorant about the organization that dictates every aspect of their lives?.
is ignorance an excuse?.
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shepherdless
Ignorance may not quite be the right word. It seems to be more a mental refusal to deal with something unpleasant.
Someone I know used to be fond of saying that most of the world's problems are caused by weak people, not evil people. (Weak in this context meaning lack of strength of character, compromising principles, hedonistic, unwilling to stand up to bullies, etc.)
I think that this religion would have died out long ago, if people within it and outside it had the courage and conviction to call it for what it is, more often.
So in my opinion, "ignorance" is not an excuse. Worse, it is a fundamental part of the cause.
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Scriptures that now have such a different meaning?!
by stuckinarut2 init struck me that so many of the scriptures that the society uses to condemn others, can actually apply to them!.
when we read them without the application that the society enforces, they can make you have that "ah-ha!
" moment.... for instance, how about:.
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shepherdless
2 Corinthians 2:7:
"for we are not peddlers of the word of God as many men are"
(a footnote states that "not peddlers" means not commercializing, or not making profit from)
For most of Watchtower history, it was the quintessential "peddler for profit" of the word of God.
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Christianity (Including JWs) Debunked
by HowTheBibleWasCreated in1 cor.
15: 21,22 rnwt: for since death came through a man,+ resurrection of the dead also comes through a man.+ 22 for just as in adam all are dying,+ so also in the christ all will be made alive.. .
so according to the nt jesus makes alive those that die in adam.. given the overwhelming evidence that adam as a man did not exist jws lose the battle on this verse.. however foolish christians like pentecostals and catholics like to call adam figurative.. okay... read it again^^^^^^... .
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shepherdless
Good thinking. However, I don't think your point would bother too many other Christians, such as Catholics.
I was brought up a Catholic (never a JW). Most Catholics know there are numerous inconsistencies in the bible, but it does not cause a major issue. Not only do they not believe in a literal Adam, they have the view that if you try to read the bible literally as a book of history (or a book of science) you are reading it the wrong way.
If I wanted to "stumble" a Catholic, I would focus on the resurrection. If Jesus was resurrected, he could have walked the streets of Jerusalem, yelling "Ha Ha, you can't kill me!". Instead, all we have is a few partially conflicting accounts of people claiming to see Jesus resurrected, a couple of whom didn't even recognise him until after he left. (This is the issue that bothered me most, as a teenager.) Even if the biblical resurrection accounts are broadly true, they are second hand accounts with about as much credibility as Elvis sightings. And without the resurrection, there is no Christianity.
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shepherdless
I vaguely remember when crop circles first appeared and made news, there were journalists saying they couldn't possibly be done by people. Then a year or so later, I saw a news item or documentary where some people revealed that they were doing it, and gave a demonstration of the boards and surveying technique used.
It should have all died down there, but I guess it is much more fun to believe aliens were involved, than a few geezers from the local pub.
I suppose there is a parallel to the early days of Watchtower. It was probably more fun to believe Russell's amateurish numerology and pyramidology (complete with obvious mistakes such as the date for the fall of Jerusalem, no zero AD etc) than see him as some guy making money selling a book series.
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Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents
by Simon injudge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.
imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.
by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.
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shepherdless
I went onto the court website myself, and it does appear Watchtower did not submit a brief. I can't confirm the other info Richard Oliver states without paying a small amount of money. (Or perhaps there is another way, but the website is unwieldy.)
Another possible reason Watchtower may not have submitted a brief is that there has been a settlement in the last week or so, pending payment of an amount. What may happen is that the parties settle, but the Court isn't notified until the amount of the settlement is paid across.
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Judge sanctions WTS - $4k per day penalty for not producing sex abuse documents
by Simon injudge sanctions jehovah's witnesses.
imposes $4000-a-day penalty for not producing documents in sex-abuse case.
by dorian hargrove, june 24, 2016. a san diego superior court judge has ordered the church of jehovah's witnesses, also known as the watchtower bible and tract society of pennsylvania, to pay $4000 a day for every day that it fails to produce documents requested in a civil lawsuit brought by former parishioner, osbaldo padron, who claims a church elder sexually abused him when he was seven years old.. in a june 23 ruling, expected to be made final today, judge richard strauss admonished the church for willfully ignoring a court order to produce all documents associated with a 1997 body of elders letter that church leaders sent to parishes around the world in a quest to learn about sexual abuse of children by church leaders.. over the course of the past year, the watchtower society and its lawyers have fought hard to keep the letter confidential, claiming that turning over the documents would infringe on the privacy of those mentioned in the letter that were not associated with the case.. in march 2015, the church turned over a heavily redacted version of the letter.
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shepherdless
I am not sure if you are disagreeing with me, Fisherman. We are saying the same thing.